Source recommendation

[bifcake]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone would care to recommend a CD player. Here are my requirements:

1. I'm interested only in Redbook playback. I'm open to SACD or DVD-A player recommendations, but only if they have top notch redbook sound.

2. I want Class A equipment

3. I want to be under $5k on the used market

4. I am open to transport / DAC combos.

I was looking into the Musical Fidelity NuVista player, Cary 200 something or other and Mark Levinson 360S with a comparable transport.

If anyone has other suggestions, I'm all ears, else help me decide among the ones I mentioned.

Thanks

 

[Robbo]

Hi Bifcake,

The obvious suggestion then springs to my mind is a Wadia 861, which you should be able to get for under $5K s/h. Fantastic player - drive, life, bags of detail and you also get a high quality preamp built in.

Look on Audiogon. There have been quite a few going recently. I envy you living in the states as you can pick up quality audio kit so much cheaper than we can over here

Cheers, Robbo

 

[bifcake]

Thanks Robbo.

Do you think the Wadia player would outperform the Levinson DAC and the NuVista player?

On a slightly different topic, can't you buy stuff on Audiogon like the rest of us?

On yet a different topic, why isn't my avatar showing? I uploaded it in the options section of the control panel.

 

[Robbo]

Bifcake,

Some would argue that the 861 is the finest ever CD player. at the price you are looking to pay, you really should audition the 861 alongside the others.

We can buy from audiogon, but there is the problem of overseas shipping costs and import taxes which spoil things a little. Not to mention the voltage conversion required.

How big is your avatar? if its to big, then it wont upload.

Cheers, Robbo

 

[bifcake]

Thanks Robbo.

I got the Avatar fixed.

Re: auditioning players, it's really difficult because the bastards that run the audio stores and the manufacturers have conspired to ensure that you can't compare competing products. So, there is no way to compare a Krell component to a Mark Levinson. That means that there is very little chance that dealers who carry Musical Fidelity equipment would also cary Wadia.

It really ticks me off to no end. They make sure that they don't have to compete. It also makes buying difficult.

 

[merlin]

Hi Bifcake and welcome

Assuming that you are living across the pond, other likely candidates include:

Levinson 390S
Wadia 861
Audio Aero Capitole 11
Sim Audio Eclipse
Audio Research CD3

I am sure WM will be along to suggest transport/dac combos, I cannot think of one at your budget that would outperform the one box solutions above.

From my experience, the Musical Fidelity NuVista is a warm and mushy offering, I finds it lacking in dynamics. If you want that analogue like warmth, the Audio Aero does this far better than the MF, whilst retaining the openess and microdynamics of a good turntable throughout the midrange. Some would argue it lacks drive, but this could only be levelled in comparison with the Wadia and Levinson. These two boast fabulous dynamic expression in the bass, slam factor Of the two, the 390S is the more neutral, the Wadia has more character to me. You either love it or find it annoying. It certainly makes all tour CD's sound interesting and full of life and vitality.

I personally like the Audio Research and Sim products. They seem to offer a half way house between the Wadia and MF, preserving essential dynamics, but with a little more refinement. Less raw power if you like, more relaxing to my ears. IMO the treble definition on these two is superior to the Wadia and MF.

The thing is, they are all great players and your choice will come down to your personal musical tastes, and your preferred presentation. What do you listen to, and what's the rest of your kit? I don't know the Cary, haven't heard it, so can't really comment. Finally, I have yet to hear a Hi Rez player that can get near any of the above for Red Book replay, and I have heard the DV50 and UnidisK

 

[The Devil]

Naim CDS1 or 2.

On a Mana stand.

It's not too bad for a CD player, though I am aware that almost no-one else here will agree.

 

[Robbo]

Bub,

I dont disagree with you, it depends entirely on ones personal taste at this level.

 

[bifcake]

Hi Merlin,

That's was a great post! Thank you.

My musical tastes are fairly varied. I listen to anything from Classical to Hard Rock. I don't listen to rap, hip/hop, disco, techno or any of that type of stuff.

The CD player will be part of my headphone set up. I will be using Cary 300SEI as my headphone amp and Sennheiser HD580 phones. Alternatively, I may look into Stax 007 combo.

Either way, I expect that the performance level I will gain will rival that of $50,000 speaker systems or there about.

 

[merlin]

I don't disagree either Bub, but I have to say, that Naim gear doesn't represent that greater value for money outside of the domestic market. The new CDS3 is a fine player, as is the Linn CD12, but just look at the prices over at Audiogon

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by bifcake
Hi Merlin,

The CD player will be part of my headphone set up. I will be using Cary 300SEI as my headphone amp and Sennheiser HD580 phones. Alternatively, I may look into Stax 007 combo.

Nice headphone D ) amp. Is that the one with the WE tubes?

For reference, a couple of weeks ago, I was running the Audio Aero here at home, hooked up using balanced outputs into my Stax Omega setup. I can say that for me, that was one of the finest music makers I have ever heard. The midrange was quite glorious, warm, detailed and involving. One evening I sat listening on that rig for four hours straight.

One thing to bear in mind would be that the combo didn't really suit headbanging, due to the relatively low output, and the tubes in both the player's output stage and the SRM-007T. Still for most music, it really was a dream, and I suspect that, given your current use of the Cary, would be a very suitable match.

The Audio Aero has switchable voltage, so you can buy from the UK or Europe and take advantage of any savings.

 

[bifcake]

Hey Merlin,

Here's the amp: http://www.caryaudio.com/products/audio/cad300sei.shtml

I don't listen to music so loud as to pop my ear drums, so I'm sure that output from any headphone amp would be suffiicient for my needs.

I heard the Sennheiser Orpheus combo and it was just absolutely glorious! Alas, for $15k, it's a bit on the expensive side. The HD580 wiith 300SEI combo came very, very close to the Orpheus at a third of the price. I suspect that the Stax system wiill be in that range as well.

Aside from the headphones, I don't have any other components as of yet, so my options are wide open.

 

[7_V]

Originally posted by bifcake
Re: auditioning players, it's really difficult because the bastards that run the audio stores and the manufacturers have conspired to ensure that you can't compare competing products. So, there is no way to compare a Krell component to a Mark Levinson. That means that there is very little chance that dealers who carry Musical Fidelity equipment would also cary Wadia.

It really ticks me off to no end. They make sure that they don't have to compete. It also makes buying difficult.

I think that you're being a little hard in your criticism of dealers and manufacturers. I don't think that there is a 'conspiracy' of manufacturers and dealers, just simple economic facts.

Perhaps I don't understand the point that you are making. Are you suggesting that every dealer should stock every product and that every manufacturer should supply every dealer?

Steve

 

[bottleneck]

Long time since Ive heard highest end stuff.

Some people whos ears I really trust reccomend -


1) The latest modifed version of the CD55 (resolution audio)
2) Lindemanns SACD player.

Both supposedly Wadia 861 beaters.


You'll be struggling to find the second in the US, but the first should be a walk in the park. Perhaps literally seeing as you are in NY.



At the end of the day though, its your ears!
what have you heard yourself and what do you think?

Chris

 

[wadia-miester]

Bif, if you were looking to be different, then Try a MSB Platunium Link dac built in switchable u/sample and msb link compatiable(used $2.5-$3k), and maybe a and older Levinson Transport, the laid back sound of the levvy No 36? tranny, with complement the MSB dac well
maybe a Audionote dac 3 and Teac P0 transport, or an Audio Area 192/24 capitole DAC($1500-$2k) and Wadia 20 transport, if you can strentch a Wadia 270, the nautral fuild sound of the AA will be given some impetius from the Wadia's big full dynamic sound sound, have heard this combo, a very good trade off
Sacd then maybe a used Dax Discrete all format Dac (basic model), $4200 new, but seen ex-demo for $3800 AGAIN MAYBE A p0 Transport or Class or lambda Drive 1. just a few idea's that may help. WM

 

[GrahamN]

Bifcake

I should declare up front that I have an 861 - so you know what I'm going to reccommend

Your choice of course depends on what you want from your music. I listen to >90% "classical" from renaissance to contemporary, majoring on 1850-1950, but with a bit of jazz and rock thrown in from time to time. I also prefer a clear but slightly bassy sound (my favoured position in a concert hall is about 15' behind the conductor, and about 4' to his/her right).

I originally had no intention to go this far up market, but when I started noticing a few things about my Meridian 508.24 I wasn't too keen on I auditioned a few things that may give an upgrade.

I had a head-to-head here of the Meridian vs the NuVista 3D and a Krell (CD300 or somthing like that - can't exactly remember the model number). The NuVista sounded absolutely beautiful, but glossed over quite a lot of detail (e.g. words didn't really come through). Krell has a rep over here of being brash, in-yer-face, unsubtle (i.e. a typical yank ). I have to say I didn't find it as bad as the rep, but it didn't really invite me into the music.

Next I heard a Chord DAC64 (driven by the Meridian) and Wadia 301. Absolutely no contest - Wadia won hands down. The Chord gave a bit more warmth than the Meridian alone, but sounded rather artificial to me. The Wadia had life and a solidity and reality to the sound that I fell in love with immediately. Only problem was disastrous ergonomics.

I also compared the 301 against the Resolution Audio Opus 21. I think the RA is an absolute disaster for classical - harsh and tuneless - but does have super clarity and soundstage that would probably suit the techo-types among us. I also tried a Tube Technology something (about 3k), but that was everything bad about the valve stereotype (music wading through honey and treacle).

Having fallen for the Wadia sound big time, I then got a 2nd hand 860 and got it upgraded to 861 spec. I didn't really listen long to its 860 incarnation, but was actually quite unimpressed - the life/bounce and solidity was missing - but the 861 upgrade (the 301 electronics contain a trimmed down version of the 860->861 developments) completely transformed it.

Bearing in mind Merlin's comments, you may also be interested that while auditioning speakers, I took the 861 around to someone selling B&W 805sigs (which I didn't like - but then then there are very few standmounts I have liked) - who also had an AA Capitole II. After it was clear I wasn't going for the 805s, he listened to the 861 for about 30 secs, then turned to me and said "Now I'm really pissed off" - having not got a sale, he now wanted to get rid of the AA and get the 861 instead.

I've not compared directly against the AR, ML or Cary - although I did hear a full Cary system once and felt it a bit sleepy.

Another make that gets good reviews are Electrocompaniet. I've not heard their EMC1 mkII (and you may have problems finding one in USA), but it's supposed to address the sleepy/soft rep (i.e. the bad side of the vinyl stereotype) of the Mk1 version.

I would probably agree with Merlin's characterisation of the Wadia sound - beefy, bouncy, lively, detailed, but above all a sense of "presence". I've not heard anything that draws me more into the performance. I think it does an even better job of rock than classical. It doesn't have quite the enormous soundstage of e.g. the Meridian, but it's still pretty good. Of course the Naimees hate it (even though it's black), but they're welcome to their own :JPS:. There are several users on Audio Asylum who swear by it, particuarly after modification by Great Northern Sounds (which is supposed to address that) - and WM here has made significant changes to Wadia kit with his tinkering (although I can't remember what the verdict was on the surgery applied to his brother-in-law's 861). I've not done any mods, but I (and clearly others) think it sounds pretty wonderful even without the mods. GNS may also help with locating a 2nd hand one.

But of course...YMMV!

 

[wadia-miester]

I going to agree with Graham on something The opus 21 was well, a bit grim I did an aution against a wadia 301 (which on the day it beat, but it was new and only been on for a day), also we tried a M/f 3.24 dac and Monarchy Audio dac , the Monarchy won on the day I guess it's just purely what tickles you fancy nothing more.
Another occation I audition the Dac 64 against the Wadia 301, and on that Day I bought the dac 64 (big mistake) it had a stunning wow factor and dynamics to sing for, but this time I heard a fully run in wadia 301, more smoother presenation and detail, not so wow, but a far better long term prospect at that time (hindsight being a wonderful thing).
The Mods that graham Talked about, help a lot in the area's of sound stage, depth of field, upper frequenices registars and more drive, however the SE is a real biggy (even in stock form).
I prefer the older Wadia's, not because the new one are lesser, no they have (in stock form), more detail, features and space/air, but not as much musical drive or dynamics, so again personal choice, if you really are looking for that 'TT like sound, then either a AA capitole (with the right gear not valhalla and 805 sigs') or as Grahman mentioned the E/C dac, or one dark horse is a lawrie favourite the Northstar Upsampling Dac, (it's very good for the more hifi presenation without question).
M/R is detaioled but laid back, krell is more brutish, wadia very musical and bouncy, DCS more neturaly hifi, E/C is very good, now a cpouple of other to aution would be a Bow ZZ one Ref and a Gryphon Adadgio CDP, both you could accquire via audiogon for under the $5k limit. WM

 

[michaelab]

Some great suggestions have been made. Along with the transport recommendations from WM I would urge you to listen to a Chord DAC64. I know that GrahamN thought the Wadia 301 killed it but to me it's simply outstanding and incredible value for money. Your $5K budget should allow you to get a decent transport with what's left over.

A number of people I know who have listened to CD players and DACs from $1K to $10K+ have found the DAC64 to be the "no contest" choice. Clearly, being a DAC64 owner myself, I'm biased But it's definitely worth a listen if you have the chance.

Alternatively, a number of people on the forum compared the DAC64 and a CAL Audio Sigma tube DAC at a "bake off" and the opinion on which was best was split 50/50. You can get the CAL Sigma DACs for around $3-400 on Audiogon so if they're as good as people say (I haven't heard one) then they are an outstanding bargain.

Michael.

 

[michaelab]

Oh, and whilst we're on DACs, the Perpetual Technologies P1-A and P3-A combo is definitely worth a listen too, not that pricey either.

Michael.

 

[titian]

And again I would suggest to hear the Metronome-Technologie CD-players before buying anything.
There are two models which could come into consideration:
- CD2 wich will be soon replaced by CD2W
- T1i

The T1i is in the same price category as the 861 while the new CD2W is cheaper. i would definitely go for T1i.