I own a Cal Audio Lab dac,the next model up from what Michael reccomends,and for its peanuts price is really quite something,but not in the Wadia 301 class,which i heard in a head to head with the Audio Research,i just prefered the AR as to me it sounded a tad more real and holographic,both were stunning though.
Source recommendation
- Thread starter bifcake
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I know for a fact that the way the manufacturers draw contracts with the dealers SPECIFICALLY state that they cannot offer certain competing products if they want to carry their lines. So, as a dealer, you may not carry the Krell line if you want to cary the Levinson line and vice versa. That's in the contracts.
Wadiameister, I would like to stay within more or less main stream in terms of high fi products. It's difficult enough finding and comparing decent equipment, so when you start gettiing really esoteric, the work load increases exponentially.
I also find it interesting that no one recommended the Levinson 360S DAC. Am I to assume that it's not a good value for the money and that other combos blow it away?
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wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Bifcake I know it's a real drag
I try to force myself to work everday, knowing I'm in for a tortious day of hifi hell 
Fair comment mate, It's tuffer than most people think trying to find the 'right' piece of kit for yourself, but a shortlist and serious home demo's are the only real solution I feel, happy hunting. WM
Remember that US stuff over here gets priced (just like computer gear) at about £1 = $1, so it's got to be seriously better to be decent VFM. Not sure how many of us (other than Merlin) have had any serious time with any Levinson gear. Again ML has the rep over here similar to Krell of being detail and drive at the expense of involvement.
Also you should bear in mind that in general our rooms are smaller than yours, and not so likely to be wooden framed - so the empahasis on treble and bass drive needed to fill a US room is often overkill for ours (I also had some WATT/Puppies for a short while, but in the end they and I couldn't share the same room). This actually makes me quite surprised that the NuVista gear (I also have an M3 - now retired) gets such a good reception in the US, as that's certainly at the more cuddly end of the spectrum.
(Also - I know you're intending to use headphones, but if you're looking at offloading a bit more cash elsewhere, you could do worse than take a trip upstate to see Meadowlark Audio in Watertown - seriously good speakers!)
michaelab
desafinado
I don't know but I imagine that ML gear is not good value for money over here. You rarely see ML equipment reviewed or even mentioned in the UK HiFi press. I personally know almost nothing about ML kit.
I do know that there's a guy on AudioAsylum who uses an ML 390S merely as a transport for his DAC64
That's how highly he rates the DAC64 
Michael.
Very interesting comments For me, the Levinson (I've only tried the 390s) is a consumate CD player. By that I mean it does everything right, in the correct sequence, with detail in abundence. My only complaint was a certain sterility or lack of involvment, something I have encountered with most Madrigal products. Great HiFi though.
So the Levinson is controlled, disciplined and balanced.The Krell is somewhat more unruly, more expressive, but ultimately, for me, wearing.
We need to remember I feel that this player is to be used for headphone listening only. For that kind of system, the qualities of the like of Wadia and Chord may, and I mean may, be undesireable for long term listening through cans. You really mightn't need the source to give you front row seats, the phones do that for me anyway. For my headphone listening, I prefer a more laid back, spacious presentation. Whilst I would put the 861, CD3 and the CD12 ahead for normal system duties, I personally would favour the warmth of the Capitole, Electrocompiet and maybe even the MF for long sessions with headphones.
For a half way house, I like the Sim Eclipse, wide open mid and treble, reasonably laid back, but with better dynamics and timing than the AA and MF.
For me, the Levinson (I've only tried the 390s) is a consumate CD player. By that I mean it does everything right, in the correct sequence, with detail in abundence. My only complaint was a certain sterility or lack of involvment, something I have encountered with most Madrigal products. Great HiFi though.So the Levinson is controlled, disciplined and balanced.The Krell is somewhat more unruly, more expressive, but ultimately, for me, wearing.
We need to remember I feel that this player is to be used for headphone listening only. For that kind of system, the qualities of the like of Wadia and Chord may, and I mean may, be undesireable for long term listening through cans. You really mightn't need the source to give you front row seats, the phones do that for me anyway. For my headphone listening, I prefer a more laid back, spacious presentation. Whilst I would put the 861, CD3 and the CD12 ahead for normal system duties, I personally would favour the warmth of the Capitole, Electrocompiet and maybe even the MF for long sessions with headphones.
For a half way house, I like the Sim Eclipse, wide open mid and treble, reasonably laid back, but with better dynamics and timing than the AA and MF.
Great posts, guys. Thank you.
If I'm not mistaken, these are the impressions I'm getting:
a) MF is warm, laid back and pleasant, but lacks definition and clarity somewhat.
b) Wadia 861 is brighter, more forward, grainier with greater detail, excitement and punch.
c) ML is accurate but sterile
d) Sim Audioi is somewhere in between Wadia and MF
I understand that we're talking about margins here and all of these players are top notch contenders.
Am I correct in forming my impressions?
Additionally, if I were to go with a transport/DAC combo, which transport would you recommend? Would gettiing a Class B player be good enough to serve as a transport for a Class A DAC?
Thanks again.
If I'm not mistaken, these are the impressions I'm getting:
a) MF is warm, laid back and pleasant, but lacks definition and clarity somewhat.
b) Wadia 861 is brighter, more forward, grainier with greater detail, excitement and punch.
c) ML is accurate but sterile
d) Sim Audioi is somewhere in between Wadia and MF
I understand that we're talking about margins here and all of these players are top notch contenders.
Am I correct in forming my impressions?
Additionally, if I were to go with a transport/DAC combo, which transport would you recommend? Would gettiing a Class B player be good enough to serve as a transport for a Class A DAC?
Thanks again.
And then there is Naim. A CDX or CDX2 partnered with the right DIN/RCA interconnects will make great music that will involve you emotionally, and pull off the odd hi-fi trick like deep bass, air and space to boot.
NOS-4-A2
Creature of the night
I would recommend the Chord DAC64 (which I own), or how about YBA for that gallic alternative perspective?
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
Two things ....
1. Eikos cd players - has anyone heard them?
2. www.karmajujitsu.org - doesn't work for me, bif.
1. Eikos cd players - has anyone heard them?
2. www.karmajujitsu.org - doesn't work for me, bif.
Sorry, it's
http://www.karmajujitsu.com
I'll change it in my profile. Are you a jujutsu practitioner?
Re: Eikos, that's pretty esoteric. I'm not sure I'll be able to find it on the used market, much less sample it.
sideshowbob
Trisha
Has anyone suggested a Meridian 588 yet? Don't know how much they go for where you are, but new in the UK they're around £2K. Excellent player IMO.
-- Ian
-- Ian
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
No, Ki Aikido since 1980 with the Ki Federation of GB. Ki Aikido deals very much with mind-body coordination and doesn't use any physical force whatsoever. I've been teaching for nearly 20 years and am currently a 5th Dan.
Has anyone else heard the Eikos?
SCIDB
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Hi,
I have heard a Eikos cd player. I enjoyed it very much. Last time I heard it was against a Clearlight turntable & some SACD & DVD-A players at a Hifi show. It was in the HIFI+ room.
The cd player gave a natural sound with good tonal balance. It didn't have the ease of sound real-life & naturalness of the turntable but it was very good. Better sounding than the SACD & DVD-A players on offer at the dem.
It is now deleted as a model but well worth a listen if you can find one.
SCIDB
I have heard a Eikos cd player. I enjoyed it very much. Last time I heard it was against a Clearlight turntable & some SACD & DVD-A players at a Hifi show. It was in the HIFI+ room.
The cd player gave a natural sound with good tonal balance. It didn't have the ease of sound real-life & naturalness of the turntable but it was very good. Better sounding than the SACD & DVD-A players on offer at the dem.
It is now deleted as a model but well worth a listen if you can find one.
SCIDB
5th dan, that's great! I feel like I've just exchanged a secret handshake with a fraternity brother.
I am a 3rd Kyu in Sosuishi ryu jujutsu and Shotokan karate. Join the karmajujutsu forum, we'll be able to talk jujutsu without boring the other members to death.
Re: Eikos, are they readily available?
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Well, well, well - very interesting indeed!!
The above comments by Graham about the Wadia 860 missing life/bounce and solidity are very interesting for several reasons and more-so because he is a Wadia 861 owner. Those were exactly my feelings when, with a friend and owner of a Wadia 860, I listened to it on two separate occasions several months ago using both tube and solid-state amplification. On the HFC Forum, I described the sound of the Wadia 860 as "unimpressive" and went on further to describe it as "boring" because to me, if a component lacks life/bounce and solidity, then it certainly cannot hold a tune which makes it boring to my ears. In fact things only improved when the 860 was used as transport to a modified North Star Model 192 DAC (also owned by the same guy). The owner has now got rid of it. However, given the original retail price of the 860, around GBP 7,450.00 I believe, I expected much, much better but was disappointed. So, it would appear that in the even more expensive 861, Wadia have now addressed those weaknesses although I have not yet heard the 861.Not surprisingly, Wadia's U.K. Consul-General, Wadia-Meister was not impressed with my comments at the time and went on to ridicule them both on the HFC and on Groovehandle forums. So it's good to see a Wadia owner who also is a music and concert lover (just like my good self
) confirm what I heard and reported on. WM ââ'¬â€œ would you now consider lifting that 'bounty' that you placed on my head when my comments were written?
Enjoy the music!!
Lawrie
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wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Well, Lawrie, I'd have to convien a council of the seceret brothers in some deep and acient mystical hall of 'music', and to be fair there getting plastered tonite, so not really
A stock 860, isn't boring, it's not earth shattering alive, but the orginal used BB 1702's in dual diff mode, (a more musical chip is difficult to find), theb upgraded 'X' then gave the 24/96khz upgrade, which isn't bad (but I find it thame for my needs), The 1 upgrade is a digigmaster filter chip ugrade with extra algorythyms, and BB 1704's and the matching filters. and an op amp removal
I honestly have never heard a Boring Wadia ever, even graham's isn't bad, the later ones don't have as much drive, still have the bass 'n' pace, but more 'Up top' which doesn't interest me.
Also there is a fair division in the Wadia camps about the 860/861 differences, the 861 is more forward and detailed as well.
I had a 860X for a while, a few months ago, jury is still out, I'm just an obsessive attack man as Graham feels
Pairing the 860 with the kit you listened too may not have helped, but even Lee's lumleys rocked.
Graham did a back to back with the AA Capitole and even the owner felt it wasted his machine, yet in the states they Juice their silkies over them, very analogue for sure great mid range presence for sure TT boys take note, but stone cold uninvolving.
Just depends on the surround accessorys, but I can truthfully say I have never ever heard a dull one, even an 301 still has life.
Not to worry though Lawrie, more than enough people love em and cherish them, for what they are.
The north star is not bad, in the same mould as the AA, had one of those too, if you what a real machine, then this combo is virtualy untouchable, a Wadia 270 SE & A MSB Platinum pre-dac, with the msb link on, stunning simply stunning, still some way short of WM's meger effort, but really worth a listen, it is awesomely good, but what you look for and what I like are worlds aparts, so maybe keep thumbing through sterophile and your stateside contacts for the lastest digital hardware and 'must listen to's'
The new chord Blue transport was unearthed at the show today cracking machine and for £4200 a bargin too, Oh that reminds me I have heard a boring Wadia, now I remeber this year at the Bristol show, Chord were using it with a DAC 64 on some chord amps, god now that was boring WM
A stock 860, isn't boring, it's not earth shattering alive, but the orginal used BB 1702's in dual diff mode, (a more musical chip is difficult to find), theb upgraded 'X' then gave the 24/96khz upgrade, which isn't bad (but I find it thame for my needs), The 1 upgrade is a digigmaster filter chip ugrade with extra algorythyms, and BB 1704's and the matching filters. and an op amp removal
I honestly have never heard a Boring Wadia ever, even graham's isn't bad, the later ones don't have as much drive, still have the bass 'n' pace, but more 'Up top' which doesn't interest me.
Also there is a fair division in the Wadia camps about the 860/861 differences, the 861 is more forward and detailed as well.
I had a 860X for a while, a few months ago, jury is still out, I'm just an obsessive attack man as Graham feels
Pairing the 860 with the kit you listened too may not have helped, but even Lee's lumleys rocked.
Graham did a back to back with the AA Capitole and even the owner felt it wasted his machine, yet in the states they Juice their silkies over them, very analogue for sure great mid range presence for sure TT boys take note, but stone cold uninvolving.
Just depends on the surround accessorys, but I can truthfully say I have never ever heard a dull one, even an 301 still has life.
Not to worry though Lawrie, more than enough people love em and cherish them, for what they are.
The north star is not bad, in the same mould as the AA, had one of those too, if you what a real machine, then this combo is virtualy untouchable, a Wadia 270 SE & A MSB Platinum pre-dac, with the msb link on, stunning simply stunning, still some way short of WM's meger effort, but really worth a listen, it is awesomely good, but what you look for and what I like are worlds aparts, so maybe keep thumbing through sterophile and your stateside contacts for the lastest digital hardware and 'must listen to's'
The new chord Blue transport was unearthed at the show today cracking machine
and for £4200 a bargin too, Oh that reminds me I have heard a boring Wadia, now I remeber this year at the Bristol show, Chord were using it with a DAC 64 on some chord amps, god now that was boring WM
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Hey WM,
Just to clarify - I am not generalizing against the sound of all Wadia components. However, my use of the term ' boring' relates to the sound of the Wadia 860 CDP only that Graham also described. The sound I heard failed to engage me. My feet did not tap. The rythm and swing were missing. I found it amusing that it had to take a DAC (albeit a modified one) that retails for around EUR 1,000.00 to add some life to the music. That's my interpretation of the term 'boring' as applied to hifi components. Your interpretation of the word 'boring' may be completely different to mine. As I mentioned, maybe this issue has now been addressed by the 861 which I may get to listen to sometime in October or early November in the same system. I'll pass on my comments then.
With regard to the price of the Chord transport - was that a typing error or did you really mean GBP 4,200.00? If that is the case, then audiophiles (as opposed to music lovers like myself) must be real suckers. I hope though that it was a typing error and that you meant GBP 2,400.00 
Btw, I don't read Stereophile as I don't like it. I read just one magazine and that is Hifi Plus.
Enjoy the music,
Lawrie
Just to clarify - I am not generalizing against the sound of all Wadia components. However, my use of the term ' boring' relates to the sound of the Wadia 860 CDP only that Graham also described. The sound I heard failed to engage me. My feet did not tap. The rythm and swing were missing. I found it amusing that it had to take a DAC (albeit a modified one) that retails for around EUR 1,000.00 to add some life to the music. That's my interpretation of the term 'boring' as applied to hifi components. Your interpretation of the word 'boring' may be completely different to mine. As I mentioned, maybe this issue has now been addressed by the 861 which I may get to listen to sometime in October or early November in the same system. I'll pass on my comments then.
With regard to the price of the Chord transport - was that a typing error or did you really mean GBP 4,200.00? If that is the case, then audiophiles (as opposed to music lovers like myself
) must be real suckers. I hope though that it was a typing error and that you meant GBP 2,400.00 Btw, I don't read Stereophile as I don't like it. I read just one magazine and that is Hifi Plus.
Enjoy the music,
Lawrie
