- Joined
- Jun 23, 2005
- Messages
- 36
- Reaction score
- 0
wadia-miester said:
Hi WM.
I'd be interested to know more about the mods you can do on the SDA and SDAi.
What would the mods comprise of and how much would they cost?
Tact VS. Bel Canto
- Thread starter Darren
- Start date
- Status
Hi WM.
I'd be interested to know more about the mods you can do on the SDA and SDAi.
What would the mods comprise of and how much would they cost?
I would be extremely reluctant to have a product modified. If you do so then you will immediately lose any warranty from the manufacturer and you will also considerably degrade the future value of the item. A modified product will only appeal to the tiny percentage of hi-fi enthusiasts that visits the likes of this forum! Even amongst us, I suspect that modified products, whilst interesting, would not be contemplated by most.
I also cannot really understand all this modification business. What's the point? If you don't like the sound, try something else! And don't forget, any mod by WM, or anyone else, is only likely to be an improvement judged from their perspective, which may be a very blinkered view and could well diverge considerably from what you are trying to acheive.
Doubtless others will have different views.
I also cannot really understand all this modification business. What's the point? If you don't like the sound, try something else! And don't forget, any mod by WM, or anyone else, is only likely to be an improvement judged from their perspective, which may be a very blinkered view and could well diverge considerably from what you are trying to acheive.
Doubtless others will have different views.
andybillet said:
penance
Arrogant Cock
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
some very valid points linearman.
I wouldnt personally contemplate buying something brand new and modifying it.
With something older, and possibly in kit form thats a different matter. Especially if its hard wired instead of using PCBs.
I wouldnt personally contemplate buying something brand new and modifying it.
With something older, and possibly in kit form thats a different matter. Especially if its hard wired instead of using PCBs.
greg
Its a G thing
I agree there is food for thought and wouldnt want anyone to get mods done in the mistaken belief that the resale value and/or appeal of the item wouldnt be affected. However I think in addition to a "heads up" (<- what a sh1t american phrase) LinearMan's comments paint a rather bleak picture IMO.
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
I would not disagree with some of linearman statements, its only right that any warranty issues be pointed out first and resale potential addressed
Mods are personal for sure, and we work with the customer to achieve what they wish too in the sonic dept's
Not all mods are performed on new equipment this is true, however I would suggest that a good 40% of the units recieved for upgrading are New, usually after 3 or 4 months after accquiring the equipment.
Most initally happy with their purchases, then the disappointment sets in.
They tend to like a lot of the traits of the unit, (backed up against 5 or 6 months listening to other units before purchasing their current one), yet it just doesn't do the whole thing for them, this is where we can help.
Manufacturing budgets are tight, so costs are cut to maximise profits, so a 1p here and there shaved off helps when you mulitiple that by the 1000's of components used.
Those who wish to hear the true potential of the equipment seek us out.
Tiny part of the market???, small yes, but Tiny NO.
I would also say that over 85% of our clients do NOT come for forums, they arrive at our door after LISTENING to other products we have modified
Simple as that.
Just my view nothing more.Wm
Mods are personal for sure, and we work with the customer to achieve what they wish too in the sonic dept's
Not all mods are performed on new equipment this is true, however I would suggest that a good 40% of the units recieved for upgrading are New, usually after 3 or 4 months after accquiring the equipment.
Most initally happy with their purchases, then the disappointment sets in.
They tend to like a lot of the traits of the unit, (backed up against 5 or 6 months listening to other units before purchasing their current one), yet it just doesn't do the whole thing for them, this is where we can help.
Manufacturing budgets are tight, so costs are cut to maximise profits, so a 1p here and there shaved off helps when you mulitiple that by the 1000's of components used.
Those who wish to hear the true potential of the equipment seek us out.
Tiny part of the market???, small yes, but Tiny NO.
I would also say that over 85% of our clients do NOT come for forums, they arrive at our door after LISTENING to other products we have modified
Simple as that.
Just my view nothing more.Wm
Fair comments, but let's get markets in proportion.
In 2003 the UK audio market was £1,500,000,000. (total audio)
In home hi-fi systems are estimated to account for £735,000,000 by 2008.
Source for above; www.euromonitor.com
So, unless your turnover is in the significant millions (which I very much doubt), then your sub market is indeed tiny.
On the economies of scale front. Most hi-fi manfacturers are making very small quantities of units. Even if each unit has many components then the saving of '1p' each will be negligible overall (but I do agree that cost focus at the design stage does impact on the finished product). If you're making thousands, then fair enough. For those that think that hi-fi manufacturers are large scale, then a visit to their production units is useful. Even what are considered to be major manfs. (Naim, eg) are small scale manufacturers.
Having said all that, if your customers are happy to have a product modified and understand the implications, then fair play to you. If the majority of your business comes through personal recomendation, then respect is due.
Who knows? I may even come & see you about my SDAi2175 in a couple of months!
In 2003 the UK audio market was £1,500,000,000. (total audio)
In home hi-fi systems are estimated to account for £735,000,000 by 2008.
Source for above; www.euromonitor.com
So, unless your turnover is in the significant millions (which I very much doubt), then your sub market is indeed tiny.
On the economies of scale front. Most hi-fi manfacturers are making very small quantities of units. Even if each unit has many components then the saving of '1p' each will be negligible overall (but I do agree that cost focus at the design stage does impact on the finished product). If you're making thousands, then fair enough. For those that think that hi-fi manufacturers are large scale, then a visit to their production units is useful. Even what are considered to be major manfs. (Naim, eg) are small scale manufacturers.
Having said all that, if your customers are happy to have a product modified and understand the implications, then fair play to you. If the majority of your business comes through personal recomendation, then respect is due.
Who knows? I may even come & see you about my SDAi2175 in a couple of months!
wadia-miester said:
LinearMan
Wm offers a 14 day free trial on products he sells (not the modifications), why not arrange to trial one of his power leads and Powermaster conditioners with your amp, I think you will then have a better understanding of why people approach him for modifications.
Regards
Gary
Wm offers a 14 day free trial on products he sells (not the modifications), why not arrange to trial one of his power leads and Powermaster conditioners with your amp, I think you will then have a better understanding of why people approach him for modifications.
Regards
Gary
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Yep Linn's turnover was £36m, which only B & W (speakers) beat I believe. nearer too £100M.
Audio is very small in the electronics world of things for sure, and is generally regarded as the 'poor mans end of the electrionics scope'
No back to design and manufacture, each product deisgned and built is given a spec & Price.
Big companies require tight budgets as an R & D of 120+ staff has to be financed.
Lets take the Tact power amp that retails for 775£ very fair price, its manufacturing cost should be 20% (1/5) of retail (max)
So unless Tact are using it as a loss leader
Then £775 less vat 17.5= £659.58 divided by 1/5= £131.91???
seems too cheap to me???
Now how many components go into the circuit boards alone?
3/4/500?
If they all saved 1 or 2p PER component (Hence why VERY VERY few units contain any genuinely good parts, the retail price would sky rocket)thats maybe a £5, not much? well multiple that by say 1000 units, then thats £5k.
Not too shabby, but thats only example.
Anyway not a lesson in economics today, The main point is very few products cut the mustard, those that wish to experiance something more to their taste, then this is the route they take.
Not for everyone without question agree wholeheartedly.
Though reserve judgement until you have listened with your own ears. Wm
Promise this is not a shameless plug(its just relevent for this thread), you could read this review of a pair of amplifiers we did a few months back.
Click on the feedback button on the left hand coloumn, last review
Info
Audio is very small in the electronics world of things for sure, and is generally regarded as the 'poor mans end of the electrionics scope'
No back to design and manufacture, each product deisgned and built is given a spec & Price.
Big companies require tight budgets as an R & D of 120+ staff has to be financed.
Lets take the Tact power amp that retails for 775£ very fair price, its manufacturing cost should be 20% (1/5) of retail (max)
So unless Tact are using it as a loss leader
Then £775 less vat 17.5= £659.58 divided by 1/5= £131.91???
seems too cheap to me???
Now how many components go into the circuit boards alone?
3/4/500?
If they all saved 1 or 2p PER component (Hence why VERY VERY few units contain any genuinely good parts, the retail price would sky rocket)thats maybe a £5, not much? well multiple that by say 1000 units, then thats £5k.
Not too shabby, but thats only example.
Anyway not a lesson in economics today, The main point is very few products cut the mustard, those that wish to experiance something more to their taste, then this is the route they take.
Not for everyone without question agree wholeheartedly.
Though reserve judgement until you have listened with your own ears. Wm
Promise this is not a shameless plug(its just relevent for this thread), you could read this review of a pair of amplifiers we did a few months back.
Click on the feedback button on the left hand coloumn, last review
Info
Last edited by a moderator:
I think Tact are doing exactly that! You've seen the contents of an SDAi2175 I assume? There's no way it's a £1000 amplifier. Your ratio of 1:5 is probably over generous ~ I would say more like 1:8. I would estimate the cost of manufacture of the above Tact at around £400, which would normally see this retailing for around £3K, which is the level it performs at sonically. Don't forget that TacT have operated direct, so there's no retail margin to consider (which is a fair chunk). Tact are now appointing dealers and I can see no means by which the above pricing is sutainable in the long term (based on gross margin revenue that needs to be created to sustain an importation and distribution business, irresepective of unit mark ups, etc). The UK price is down to TacT UK ~ it would be interesting to learn their selling price elsewhere ~ Denmark, for example.
Thanks for the link ~ I shall read with interest. Back to the CAD now!
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2005
- Messages
- 36
- Reaction score
- 0
LinearMan said:
Hi.
I agree and I have no complaints about my SDAi either. It's a marvel of modern tec. I can't find any trace of the negatives that WM describes, but I am still very interested to know what any mods he would do would consist of and what they would cost. I didn't really buy the SDAi as I was restricted to a budget, I bought it because I loved the sound, so modding one is not out of the question. I'd even be tempted to get a second unit to A > B them. Will you please give some further info on what mods you would recommend WM?
PS Pics of the internals can be seen on the www.tactaudio.dk website.
Like you, I bought on sound, not budget. I had a £3K budget for a new amp, once I'd decided which to go with, having trialed a few used units which I subsequently sold on. I'd be very interested if you do have the mods done ~ if you're not too far away we could use mine as a non modded 'control' for comparison.
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Linearman,
First I'd like start by saying I could afford any unit in the tact range, or nearly almost any equipment, I like yourself choose purely on sound alone. (Thats not meant to sound funny or flash harry at all)
I get to hear many different pieces of equipment weekly, some new prototypes, the latest spec US gear, so low level quality valve gear.
So what I'm trying to say in a round about way is, It doesn't do it for me.
It obviously does it for you guys.
WE all look for different things in our sounds.
My mod tally with Tacts is 7 (Two 2.0 pre amps correction units, Three 2.2 pre-amp room correction with bass units) and 3 of the power amps the £800 touch units.
Lets start with the Pre-amps, basically a medium grade PC control system, with SIMM for adc/dac/room correction software.
Placed in a nice box with an off the shelf cheapo SMPS which sprays the interior of the unit with rfi/emi.Contaminating the whole shabang, its been detailed enough on plenty of forums.
Lots of gains here, I personally remove the psu from the main box and construct a bespoke custom torroidial unit with totally isolated super regulated independent dc feeds. Suppiled by a unique Umbilical fully screened supply locking lead.
Full, screened techniques employed inside along with reclocking circuit & seperate psu, custom leads for the ribbon cables too. *Plus other items*
The Power amp, isn't quite so bad (the forwardness I describe comes from these, I have not heard the Intergrated version)
Mains conditioning helps a lot with this along with more naturalness & flow, doesn't cure it all though.
Switchers by the nature are almost self defeating,a lot of designs NEVER get through CE approval due to the interference generated by the switching module & FETS
I'm not going into great detail here, this is my ~little area of joy~ so to speak.
I take the Sdai is the same power amp coupled with a pre amp section in a different box.
Andy, if you wish to take a few internal shots for me I would be greatful, however only first by benchmarking through a series of tests will I be able to determine the Exact areas that need attention as effectively I need to reverse engineer it.
If the power amp section is the same, then some most useful gains can be made.
Just for the record, my personal interest in Switching technology goes back only 3 years so not a lot compared to Linear man I feel
However a couple of us like minded engineers have developed our own switching chipset, a few of the guys have heard its potential.
The lost point though (Sorry) is simple if Tact or ANYONE produced a no budget designed unit, based on what sounded good and the not spec sheet, it would be un reachable to all but the most well heeled, we all realise that.
I just offer a chance to get a lot closer, without the constraints placed upon the designs by budgets and timetables thats all.
Wm
First I'd like start by saying I could afford any unit in the tact range, or nearly almost any equipment, I like yourself choose purely on sound alone. (Thats not meant to sound funny or flash harry at all)
I get to hear many different pieces of equipment weekly, some new prototypes, the latest spec US gear, so low level quality valve gear.
So what I'm trying to say in a round about way is, It doesn't do it for me.
It obviously does it for you guys.
WE all look for different things in our sounds.
My mod tally with Tacts is 7 (Two 2.0 pre amps correction units, Three 2.2 pre-amp room correction with bass units) and 3 of the power amps the £800 touch units.
Lets start with the Pre-amps, basically a medium grade PC control system, with SIMM for adc/dac/room correction software.
Placed in a nice box with an off the shelf cheapo SMPS which sprays the interior of the unit with rfi/emi.Contaminating the whole shabang, its been detailed enough on plenty of forums.
Lots of gains here, I personally remove the psu from the main box and construct a bespoke custom torroidial unit with totally isolated super regulated independent dc feeds. Suppiled by a unique Umbilical fully screened supply locking lead.
Full, screened techniques employed inside along with reclocking circuit & seperate psu, custom leads for the ribbon cables too. *Plus other items*
The Power amp, isn't quite so bad (the forwardness I describe comes from these, I have not heard the Intergrated version)
Mains conditioning helps a lot with this along with more naturalness & flow, doesn't cure it all though.
Switchers by the nature are almost self defeating,a lot of designs NEVER get through CE approval due to the interference generated by the switching module & FETS
I'm not going into great detail here, this is my ~little area of joy~ so to speak.
I take the Sdai is the same power amp coupled with a pre amp section in a different box.
Andy, if you wish to take a few internal shots for me I would be greatful, however only first by benchmarking through a series of tests will I be able to determine the Exact areas that need attention as effectively I need to reverse engineer it.
If the power amp section is the same, then some most useful gains can be made.
Just for the record, my personal interest in Switching technology goes back only 3 years so not a lot compared to Linear man I feel
However a couple of us like minded engineers have developed our own switching chipset, a few of the guys have heard its potential.
The lost point though (Sorry) is simple if Tact or ANYONE produced a no budget designed unit, based on what sounded good and the not spec sheet, it would be un reachable to all but the most well heeled, we all realise that.
I just offer a chance to get a lot closer, without the constraints placed upon the designs by budgets and timetables thats all.
Wm
Last edited by a moderator:
Very interesting. Incidentally my background is MechEng, so I've no in depth knowledge of electronics. But I have had over 30 years as a hi-fi enthusiast and I have also worked in manufacturing design.
The SDAi2175 is effectively a SDA2175 coupled with an anologue preamp in one box. Internal photos and details are on the Tact Denmark site.
From a manufacturing POV, the casework alone on my Tact amp is of a much higher standard than you would expect for its selling price. As you have worked on a SDA2175, I would be interested to learn how the quality of components, construction & design together with sonic performance compares to other power amps being sold for £775 (Arcam, et al), or indeed other power amps up to £2K.
The SDAi2175 is effectively a SDA2175 coupled with an anologue preamp in one box. Internal photos and details are on the Tact Denmark site.
From a manufacturing POV, the casework alone on my Tact amp is of a much higher standard than you would expect for its selling price. As you have worked on a SDA2175, I would be interested to learn how the quality of components, construction & design together with sonic performance compares to other power amps being sold for £775 (Arcam, et al), or indeed other power amps up to £2K.
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
LinearMan said:
Linear-Man, Mine too Bsc Eng (Hons), my x/over came when I started working on the digital fuel injections systems for fighter aircraft and the FBW control systems for commerical airliners
I agree on the case work, though in many cases (pun !!) the cases are the Major cost factor in the product
Going through this process as we speak
As for the SDAi amp, a photo on a website is one thing, I do really need to understand how the unit works so to speak, I need to trace the circuit pathways and routes to understand the geometery so to speak.
AS for your last question refernece Arcam et al, this is pureply subjective again, the Tact does dynamics and detail well, better than a lot in the sub £2k territory without question, weather or not its what the client is looking for is purely personally.
System matching being the other.
THough I would say with the amp section of your intergrated, I would look at the psu to Start with. Wm
penance
Arrogant Cock
wadia-miester said:
I am never flying again!
Would just like to thank everyone who gave their time and input to the formation of my new hifi system.
Special mentions go to The Wadia Miester (cable and Wadia 830 ideas), John Swan (Sonus Faber) and David @Tact Audio Uk (power amp). Also thanks to everyone who gave an opinion on the Tact power amp - I tried it and love it.
The only problem I now have is that the wife is going fecking mental about the Wadia which is too big for the shelf and sticks out a bit at the front. I slept on the sofa last night - sheesh!!
Darren
PS It sounds fab. Next step WM mods to the wadia or New CD player depending if I or the wife wins out!!
Special mentions go to The Wadia Miester (cable and Wadia 830 ideas), John Swan (Sonus Faber) and David @Tact Audio Uk (power amp). Also thanks to everyone who gave an opinion on the Tact power amp - I tried it and love it.
The only problem I now have is that the wife is going fecking mental about the Wadia which is too big for the shelf and sticks out a bit at the front. I slept on the sofa last night - sheesh!!
Darren
PS It sounds fab. Next step WM mods to the wadia or New CD player depending if I or the wife wins out!!
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2005
- Messages
- 36
- Reaction score
- 0
Darren said:
Glad you like the SDA. Wait until it's run in for a few weeks.
Might be worth a look at the Lyngdorf CD-1. If they can do for a CD player what they do for amps it should be a stunner ffor the money. Needless to say, I have one on order. According to David@Tact it should be available in 2 - 3 weeks.
- Status
