The difference between mainstream HIFI, budget seperates, midrange and high end?

[titian]

just 0.5db change is perfectly audible, not if it's a narrow peak but certainly it can change tonal balance if wider.

It depends where you measure the 0.5 dB. If it is 0.5 Spl at the listening position you would hardly hear it.
The optimum for the best recording studios is +- 3 db!

Also a 2 db spl wide peak at the listening place (lets say from 350 to 2 KHz) would not cause a great audiable tonal balance.
The RT60 and ETC have more audiable influences to persons.

 

[RobHolt]

Well it goes part of the way towards an answer. From an engineering point of view it's not just resistance that would matter but other things such as bandwidth product, slew rates, distortions etc.

The impact of such things on our perception of the sound aren't fully understood however. For example. How would you measure transparency?? is it purely a function of resolution and therefore noise floor? or are other factors at play? It is known that a little bit of noise actually improves the human ears ability to resolve smaller levels for example. In fact it's a technique that is used in CD production/playback.

I think that much depends on where you set the bar or threshold for these things being audible.
Many high end audio designers and listeners set this threshold far too low IMO, ascribing things such as better transparency, resolution detail etc to technical differences that are in fact inaudible.
Then we have the question of distortion or 'errors' which subjectively enhance things such as transparency and detail.

 

[RobHolt]

It depends where you measure the 0.5 dB. If it is 0.5 Spl at the listening position you would hardly hear it.
The optimum for the best recording studios is +- 3 db!

Also a 2 db spl wide peak at the listening place (lets say from 350 to 2 KHz) would not cause a great audiable tonal balance.
The RT60 and ETC have more audiable influences to persons.

Look back through the ages at CD players typically described as sounding more analogue, smoother, weighty etc.
Most have subtle response tailoring, not peaks but gentle response bending centred on the mid band.

The same goes for the speaker/amplifier interface.
I've some plots showing how the response of a Tannoy 12" DC changes with increasing amplifier output impedance.

The old Bob Carver tests with Stereophile are worth a look and relevant to this discussion. He claimed that he could tweak the technical performance of his modestly priced Cube SS amp to mimic any other amplifier. There is much debate on the whether he succeeded but it passed the blind tests of the day.

 

[Dave Simpson]

Gentlemen,

What are your thoughts on microphonics with solid state devices? I can hear a difference with a weighty object placed atop my CD player, preamp or power amp but not on my tuner. The same is experienced with the supporting platform underneath.

regards,

dave

 

[DavidF]

Agree entirely and what you say not only emphasises that measurements are important but that we understands them, or at least make some attempt to.

Our Magic Circle friends please take note

Its one way.

I don't believe its the only way.

I approached this forum some years ago for ideas on how to improve my hi fi (is that not what its here for? ).

Money is always a constraint so I was introduced to the topics of Vibration Managment/Microphony (also room accoustics), things I could experiment with at little cost on a diy basis.

(I've since discovered that vibration control is a massive subject that affects many industries, so I think the term "magic circle" is a not entirely appropriate one).

I admire you guys for your techie electrical knowledge! If it was me, though, I'd be listening to it to see what it did (in the final analysis that what we're here for, isn't it??) as well as testing it electronically.

 

[RobHolt]

Gentlemen,

What are your thoughts on microphonics with solid state devices? I can hear a difference with a weighty object placed atop my CD player, preamp or power amp but not on my tuner. The same is experienced with the supporting platform underneath.

regards,

dave

The CD player contains moving parts so it might explain the difference. A null test would prove the point conclusively.

With electronics in particular I'm not convinced there is any issue.
Some evidence exists that early dac chips were microphonic, but then only if you were thumping the chip IIRC so not sure how important that is.
Regular line level circuits and power amplifiers though - never experienced a problem.

Tests for this would be extremely easy.
For example, take a pre amp, short the input and wind the gain to maximum. Record the output digitally with the pre amp sitting atop a silent loudspeaker, then repeat the recording with the speaker playing. Compare the recordings for differences. No reason why you cannot also do this with integrated amps, power amps or phono stages.
That test is under far more hostile conditions than the norm.

One further thought.
Even if we were to find some evidence and get a positive result from the above test, it would surely be several orders of magnitude lower than with tube equipment.
I rarely see people complaining about microphony with their tube electronics even though it most certainly does exist.
Therefore I'd be inclined to file the question of SS microphony under 'not relevant'.

 

[DavidF]

Gentlemen,

What are your thoughts on microphonics with solid state devices? I can hear a difference with a weighty object placed atop my CD player, preamp or power amp but not on my tuner. The same is experienced with the supporting platform underneath.

regards,

dave

IME.......

There are considerable sonic gains achievable with cdps.

Less so with amps (subtle effects).

My TT is a project waiting in the wings but I think it would respond favourably .

 

[titian]

Look back through the ages at CD players typically described as sounding more analogue, smoother, weighty etc.
Most have subtle response tailoring, not peaks but gentle response bending centred on the mid band.

You're talking about measurements took from the outputs of the units. Our perception is based on what we hear at the listening position. If you talk about "sounding" then please do not forget the room and measurements done at the listening position.
Do you have results of experiments done with these units in absolutely ideal acoustical conditions (where the room practically no influence on the frequency response at the listening position) saying that for the listener these CD players sounds "more analogue, smoother, weighty etc."? If yes I would like to see the results of these experiments hoping they also include the frequency response and other acoustical measurements (ETC, RT60) at the listening position.

The same goes for the speaker/amplifier interface.
I've some plots showing how the response of a Tannoy 12" DC changes with increasing amplifier output impedance.

Yes but maybe with some other loudspeaker a person would not be able to hear a difference (or much much less).

The old Bob Carver tests with Stereophile are worth a look and relevant to this discussion. He claimed that he could tweak the technical performance of his modestly priced Cube SS amp to mimic any other amplifier. There is much debate on the whether he succeeded but it passed the blind tests of the day.

I don't know about these tests. Maybe you can put a link here.
When Bod means mimic any other amplifier I wonder which sound characteristics he takes into consideration and if tests have been done really on many other amplifiers. But anyway I don't know what you're talking about.

Even if we were to find some evidence and get a positive result from the above test, it would surely be several orders of magnitude lower than with tube equipment.
I rarely see people complaining about microphony with their tube electronics even though it most certainly does exist.

I also believe that microphony with tube units is higher. I also haven't seen a lot of tube fans which thoughts are about microphony of their unit (tube microphony though yes).

Therefore I'd be inclined to file the question of SS microphony under 'not relevant'.

me no but again if anybody is interested in it, he should try himself.

There are considerable sonic gains achievable with cdps.

The point is how much is "considerable" and if this is also so much to be "considerable" for other people.

 

[nando]

i still think and always will, the audioble reproction of music can not be measured nither by scopes or measurements of a degree of figures but only to the individual likeness of the sound that pleases him, however most retailers tend to diverse the issue of clients preferactions of what they really are looking for their sound that they want to have in their homes regardless of makes although there is "the look's factor" for all is worth , looks are nice but sound pleasure is more important,
bless,
nando

 

[RobHolt]

You're talking about measurements took from the outputs of the units. Our perception is based on what we hear at the listening position. If you talk about "sounding" then please do not forget the room and measurements done at the listening position.

Yes of course done at the outputs but if the hi-fi amplifier is worthy of the name it will pass this accurately to the loudspeaker which should also reflect the difference.
Yes our perception of the differences are likely to be diluted when we factor in the listening distance and room acoustics but that surely adds weight to the argument that we shouldn't get hung-up on small differences, and that they are often inaudible or irrelevant. So if you cannot detect a perfectly visible and measurable difference, what chance is there that you'll detect the difference between say two cables that have absolutely no measurable effect on the system?

You can only properly demonstrate any of this with controlled testing which is something that many simply won't entertain.
To not test for audibility leaves you discussing things that are probably moot.

Can I hear 0.5db lift applied to my CD player from 500hz to 20hz - yes I can and at the listening position. Can I hear 0.5db from 500hz-400hz - absolutely not.
Should I verify that with a blind test - yes

 

[RobHolt]

s "the look's factor" for all is worth , looks are nice but sound pleasure is more important,
bless,
nando

Looks certainly have influence.
The look of a huge brute of a pro power amplifier will trigger expectation as to what it will sound like, as will the look of a tiny black box with '15w Pure Class A' proudly displayed on the front.

Active pre amps containing lots of circuitry and OP amps usually have certain assumed sound characteristics, as do very simple alternatives such as passive attenuators.

 

[titian]

Should I verify that with a blind test - yes

For this discussion it is not interesting what you can (not) hear but what the great amount of people can (not) hear.

 

[DavidF]

Yes of course done at the outputs but if the hi-fi amplifier is worthy of the name it will pass this accurately to the loudspeaker which should also reflect the difference.
Yes our perception of the differences are likely to be diluted when we factor in the listening distance and room acoustics but that surely adds weight to the argument that we shouldn't get hung-up on small differences, and that they are often inaudible or irrelevant. So if you cannot detect a perfectly visible and measurable difference, what chance is there that you'll detect the difference between say two cables that have absolutely no measurable effect on the system?

You can only properly demonstrate any of this with controlled testing which is something that many simply won't entertain.
To not test for audibility leaves you discussing things that are probably moot.

Its all "moot" Rob.

Thats why the forum's here!

Can I hear 0.5db lift applied to my CD player from 500hz to 20hz - yes I can and at the listening position. Can I hear 0.5db from 500hz-400hz - absolutely not.
Should I verify that with a blind test - yes

Feel free.

If, on the other hand, you think you have discovered something others might make use of, post it for others to enjoy.

 

[DavidF]

For this discussion it is not interesting what you can (not) hear but what the great amount of people can (not) hear.

Just so, quite so!!!

Can we go through that again plse?

 

[RobHolt]

For this discussion it is not interesting what you can (not) hear but what the great amount of people can (not) hear.

Surely 'think' should be in there somewhere.

 

[titian]

'think' is implicitly always there in my posting.
Maybe that's the difference to other postings.

 

[Dave Simpson]

What conclusion should you reach regardless of the blind test's outcome but still clearly heard when the gear is installed and working in normal fashion?

 

[RobHolt]

What conclusion should you reach regardless of the blind test's outcome but still clearly heard when the gear is installed and working in normal fashion?

In normal use you have reverted to a sighted evaluation and all of the usual influences and potential bias will apply.

 

[Dave Simpson]

IME.......

There are considerable sonic gains achievable with cdps.

Less so with amps (subtle effects).

My TT is a project waiting in the wings but I think it would respond favourably .

I find the differences far greater with my CDPs than my amps as well. I find no difference with my tuner. LOL...I'd love to hear Freud's explanation on why I choose to reject my tuner.

 

[Dave Simpson]

In normal use you have reverted to a sighted evaluation and all of the usual influences and potential bias will apply.

It's amazing how consistent and accurate my delusions are. For example, I've passed every test comparing the sonic differences between transport pucks used with my CDS which are extremely subtle. (friend/family member switches between single and double o-ring pucks and I identify which is in use.)