The Manchester hi-fi show

wasn't worth the money, I heard nothing I liked. Was glad to get home and listen to mine. Seems like over bright treble was in this year. It's sad when the almost the best thing I heard was the Arcams and the PMC's. Audionote were the only real bright spot. Too much AV, too many booms, too many systems turned up so loud you couldn't hear yourself think.

Don't think I'll be going again. The only bright spot was the record stalls. Got a couple of nice Cisco Blue notes. Pricey, but sound lovely.
 
i walked out with the Stalker/Bach cello suites and ok computer on vinyl, that was worth the trip.

browsing the racks is so much better than doing it online.
 
And then.........



Then we ventured into the AudioWorks room. Spectral Amps, Avalon Speakers, DCS Paganini, i think, all wired and fired with his selection of hi-zoot mains blocks and interconnects etc etc and all on his new guitar shape shelves.

Well frankly for the cost of the gear it sounded crap, just plain bloody awful, i have heard better in Dixons.

But there was more to come.

This guy got the award for player of the most obvious parlour game demo. His demo was removing his 'quality' mains cables and replacing them with kettle leads, and we were mean to pick up on the drop in sound quality along the way.

So off he goes playing some music telling us about how fantastic it was, clicking his fingers and tapping feet, smiling away, really getting into it. (we declined to follow suit and sat quite stoicly).

"right, that was great yeh, now see if you can spot the difference now i've taken out the hi-end cable from the DCS player"

The only differnece was that this time he didn't jump around clicking his fingers and tapping his feet, he stood there and scowled at us. ( so me and my two mates sat there tapping our feet and nodding our heads, while other people joined in, easil;y duped by our happy demeanours.).

He looked pissed.... he knew the game was up.

He asked who thought it sounded much much worse after all " if you couldn't hear that difference you should give up and sell your hifi". Naturally i volunteered that i couldn't hear any difference, then asked the guy next to me if he had. (i'd noticed that he had been easily lead by my foot tapping so thought him a cert to identify with me rather than the shop guy). Naturally he heard no differnece. The Audioworks guy is looking for a rabbit by this time.

So one of the audience asks how much the DCS player costs, "that's a 9K cd player" the guy says super pleased to show how much his gear costs, "9K just out this month".

"you'd think for nine thousand pounds that a company with a history of firsts in DSP and audio development would be able to cobble together a mains lead that didn't reduce the quality of their product".

he didn't respond.

"i noticed that they used standard leads downstairs in the DCS, they must think them all right"...

By this time, he realises that we are hear for a little fight, we hadn't come for a fight, but his parlour game was too clumsy to put up with, him foot tapping and clapping when he was listening to the expensive stuff, then the scowling and abrupt language as we moved down the kettle leads.

truth was there was absolutely no fucking difference at all, not even when all the gear had shit leads or when it had all his leads.

Pissed that we'd kinda sabotaged his demo, which we never intended to do, he did that himself, we decided that it might be nice to discuss the merits of his cables with him.

So we did.



"so what exactly do these cables do then" we asked, as it hadn't yet gone 'totally' south at this point.

" they allow a ''''''better harmonic structure to propagate up the wire'''''', and they damp out unwanted vibrations within the cable, it's a very fine selection process getting exactly the right amount of damping you don't want to over do it."

"surely you damp out all the vibration?" i asked

"no, if you over damp it it sounds bad".

"but it's just a power cable into a cd player, how can it be microphonic, have you eve measured it at the outputs.

"you can't measure it... you just have to trust your ears" he says.

"well i was trusting my ears, and i heard no difference at all, between the cheap and the expensive leads, so i just wondered what we should have been listening for, you know before i sell my hifi.."

"before you shoot yourself in the foot", says he" you might like to know that i also designed a nine thousand pound valve amp, so i know my electronics".

"did it sound any good" someone asked from the back"

So naturally i said "isn't it a bit bullish of you to assume that i have no electronics knowledge, after all you dont know me and you haven't stopped to ask what i do for a living. Do you always take the high ground with your customers and assume them to be idiots. if so how does that tally wiht telling them to trust their ears, aren't you just telling them to trust yours? Anyway about this damping... so does it damp the microphonic cable vibration out completely?

"almost" he said.

"so wouldn't that lovely 50hz vibration coming from the traffo inside the DCS player just put it all back in?"

and after that it fell apart, he lost the audience completely, we went around the houses on the subject of the only difference in the demo.... the sound of his own carefully placed tapping of feet and clicking of fingers to support a positive air during replay with his expensive cables, and him not tapping his feet and scolwing when he wanted people to react negatively to the cables...... and then he asked us to leave.

"If you don't want to learn anything from me, then why don't you give you seat up to someone who can hear the great difference these cables make to the sound?"

" we will mate, Dave said standing up, but i'm guessing you better take that seat yourself, because you're the only person in this room who thinks there is any differnece between those cables"...

and we went back and listned to Delicate sound of thunder in the MAX room, simply awesome music and no hard sell.

He was super pissed, for which I, Dave and Mark, make no apologies. if you want to demo gear then don't assume your customers haven't worked in the trade, don't use parlour tricks and slapdash NLP tricks, and above all, do your fucking research so you know what you are talking about when someone asks you a question and don't be so fucking rude...

This is an outrageous libel designed to damage a well-respected dealer. For an alternative view try here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51
 
No it isn't it's a factual account of what took place to the best of my ability to remember it, and all bits in quotes are exact quotes...

So stop falling over yourself to kiss his arse.

it was a bad demo, in which he was usuing parlour tricks to bias the outcome and it fell apart under scrutiny. get over it.
 
Is this just a "cunning plan" to get more people to go to the next hifi show then?

Not only do you get to listen to music, but there's also dealers dancing and the potential for a "fight"..."fight"..."fight"..:D
 
it was a bad demo, in which he was usuing parlour tricks to bias the outcome and it fell apart under scrutiny. get over it.

The editorial bias of this forum is very much that of scepticism and objectivism and I have no issue with that. However I do suggest that some folks could do well by taking their fingers out of their ears and taking no notice of Steve Jackson's body movements.

You came into the room to heckle, hear the sound of your own voice and nothing more.

The above link does provide some balance.

On that subject, in every goody bag handed out to people at reception there was a flyer approximately 7 x 25cm printed in black and white. I hope you lost yours.
 
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The editorial bias of this forum is very much that of scepticism and objectivism and I have no issue with that. I'm not sure if that involves hosting libel though.

Allowing certain claims to be questioned does not equate to bias and if you can show us the libellous content we'd be pleased to deal with it.
 
My advice is take your fingers out of your ears and take no notice of Steve Jackson's body movements. You came into the room to heckle, hear the sound of your own voice and nothing more.

The above link does provide some balance.

What?

Why can't he just sit still for 5 minutes and keep shtum letting folk hear any difference (or not) for themselves.?

Simon's version of events tallies exactly with mine on past experience of AW/QS dems.

I'd hardly call a link to a fan boy site which has latched onto the latest craze 'balanced'.
 
The editorial bias of this forum is very much that of scepticism and objectivism and I have no issue with that. I'm not sure if that involves hosting libel though.

My advice is take your fingers out of your ears and take no notice of Steve Jackson's body movements. You came into the room to heckle, hear the sound of your own voice and nothing more.

The above link does provide some balance.

On that subject, in every goody bag handed out to people at reception there was a flyer approximately 7 x 25cm printed in black and white. I hope you lost yours.

if he didn't hear any difference then so what..? get over it... :D
 
This is an outrageous libel designed to damage a well-respected dealer. For an alternative view try here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51

meaning of libel:-

In law, defamation (also called vilification, slander, and libel) is the communication of a statement that makes a *false claim*, expressively stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism.

so as this actually happened, its not libel, so, make sure you know the meaning before calling something libellous when it aint. :rolleyes:
 
So one of the audience asks how much the DCS player costs, "that's a 9K cd player" the guy says super pleased to show how much his gear costs, "9K just out this month".

"you'd think for nine thousand pounds that a company with a history of firsts in DSP and audio development would be able to cobble together a mains lead that didn't reduce the quality of their product".

he didn't respond.

"i noticed that they used standard leads downstairs in the DCS, they must think them all right"...

Those few lines are more hilarious than libellious to me.

Well done that man.
 
As the person repsonsible for moderating my companies own website and very large user forum, I'm more than aware of what costitutes libel or slander with regards to the web.

And none of my post does.

The bits in "quotes" are exactly that, verbatim quotes. There was much more said but as i don't feel able to recall all of it with the same level of accuracy, i didn't include it.

if you disagree with my recounting of the tale, please point out the exact bits you say didn't happen...or the places where i have misquoted.

If you just weren't aware of the whole host of NLP and 'action tricks' that dealers use to steer a demo, then that's unfortunate, but hardly anything to do with me.

As i've posted elsewhere i had no motive upon entering that demo, i entered it with the same open mind i entered every room with. However i didn't hear any difference, despite his dancing.
 
How much of joke is this thread; http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51

Its a windup right? Complete and utter BS from dealers, I hate slimey cable salesmen. Don't know about anyone else but it takes a HUGE change in sound to go from scowling to foot tapping and not just this from *******************

As for the results of the demonstration itself, the differences between the stands and cables could clearly be heard: *IF* you know what to listen for (look for how music is impacted on not for hi-fi effects) and, somewhat crucially, if your mind is open enough not to allow prejudices to cloud your judgement, as is always the case in these situations.

It gets worse:

As an aside, a point that should be considered in these types of demonstrations is that it's just as easy not to want to hear something as it is the opposite… Expectation bias cuts both ways, and can cause (in this case) selective 'deafness' just as much as it can dupe the cable 'believer' into hearing things that might not actually be there. Anyway, it was fairly obvious that these guys had made up their mind before they came into the room what the result of the demonstration would be, and no amount of sensible debate was likely to change their mind.

Well how freakin convenient. There must be a handbook entitled "How to counter a cable slur" that these guys get because that's something I read regularly.
 
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I think these guys have done themselves no favours at all...
 
Hi guys, at this stage I wanted to remind everyone about bringing disputes from other forums here but in this case we (ZG and PFM) seem to be the subject of "discussion".

Steven,

Does the AUP on your forum allows being disrespectful to other forums? And what exactly do you mean by "Indeed. Take whatever action you deem necessary and we'll back you 100%." in the following post?

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=398&postcount=7

To me it reads like a threat against ZG and PFM.
 
It is no threat against either ZG or PFM. I'm of the opinion that it may be the individuals themselves not admin of the forums on which they write who may have a case to answer.

I witnessed first hand what took place in the Audio Works dem room at the show.

Going by your logic that would make either the show organisers or the Radisson Hotel responsible for what happened.

As it happens, if you read the thread further you will see that Audio Works are not going to bother going down the litigation route.

How have I been disrespectful to ZG or PFM? I witnessed a couple of guys heckling in a dem who then decide to go public on the internet with their version of events. It matters not where they chose to do this.

If it is going to cause inter-forum squabbles that I definitely don't welcome then I'll happily delete the thread.
 
why do you idiots always throw around legal threats whenever there is a disagreement?

Far better to simply laugh it off, people will respect you more for it and it'll be forgotten about in a couple of days rather than become forum legend material.
 
I witnessed first hand what took place in the Audio Works dem room at the show.

So what? You believe whatever AW salesmen tell you. I've seen these NLP techniques, and they are effective on the gullible. Do you really think there's some sort of problem with the DCS power cable? Supplementary: [What sort of problem could there possibly be?]

Not a terribly auspicious start for your new forum, Steven. Already at war with two well-established ones, and you have been going for how long?
 
I have deleted a couple of posts. One was mine.

There are one or two stirrers around who are twisting this into being some kind of inter-forum war. It isn't. We've responded to what's been said not the forums themselves.

Here to help

Really?
 

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