Turntable choices

[tones]

Originally posted by domfjbrown
LP12s are laughable devices; I mean, if you walk near one it jumps; they warble like f*** too if disturbed; a wall shelf is the only way you can begin to attempt to coax a stable sound out of them.

Dom, why not just say, "I don't like LP12s and I'll take the flimsiest accusations and exaggerate them out of all proportion" and have done?

I happen to have one of these terrible things. Some points from around 6 years of ownership:

- it does not jump when I go near it

- it never warbles, ever, and the sound is rock-solid stable, always.

- it does none of these things while not sitting on a wall shelf, or on any kind of dedicated support but on top of a cabinet.

Moreover, it performs without any need for major adjustment.

I am not saying that the LP12 is the best deck on the planet, but it is a darn good one. So, why go on rehashing these sorry old myths all the time? Naturally, you have the perfect right to do so, but in doing so you only demolish your own credibility. Naturally, you also have the right to do that. It sounds as if you have had one experience with a poor specimen perhaps on a very wobbly floor; fine, but you shouldn't extrapolate that to cover all LP12s.

P.S. I also haven't detected this "bass hump" in all my listening, so I assume that this is also a myth.

P.P.S. This was written before I saw your other mail. OK, so you've heard two, but I personally can vouch for the fact that Linn made more than two. Why can you not accept that there are LP12s that do NOT behave the way you'd clearly like them to?

 

[Uncle Ants]

Originally posted by domfjbrown

I'm not sticking up for my Planar 3 - I need a much better deck one day but can't afford/justify it now. It won't be a Linn I get - sorry. If I could get one with no bass hump for under £500 that never needed to be reset up I'd be interested, but such a thing doesn't exist...

Nick the arm and cart off your old Rega and a Michell Tecnodec almost does it for the money ... doesn't bounce about either ... you can get a lid too ... if you want one ... and its black :JPS:

 

[Marco]

Originally posted by merlin

I know Marco, you and Mick together

Don't worry about it too much

Now you see, even with smileys, that's far more of a bitchy and insulting comment than in my opinion anyone else has managed so far on this thread!

Merlin, your 'witty repartee' is most appreciated, but I'd rather you answered my earlier question about this shop of yoursââ'¬Â¦

Marco.

 

[Marco]

Tones

What happened to your thread about hi-fi mags, etc?

It doesn't appear to be there anymore.

Marco.

P.S I've just noticed it's been put into the 'chat' section, why has that happened?

 

[tones]

That's where I put it originally, Marco, so all's well.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by Marco
Now you see, even with smileys, that's far more of a bitchy and insulting comment than in my opinion anyone else has managed so far on this thread!
Marco.

Thanks for the praise Marco

If you are all honest, that's what this thread is all about, attempting to belittle others opinions in the knowledge that they won't be round to extend a greeting with their forehead.

I certainly haven't seem much in the way of intelligent conversation, more the typical slanging match that is guaranteed when a certain group of folk gather at this place. Good fun though, even if it is totally pointless.

To expand on "the shop", I should possibly add " where I had a demo" to the end of the sentance. I am not a dealer, and haven't been for over a decade. I am however, very lucky to have a number of friends in the industry, some of whome might even be able to converse on Paul's level

So back to the thread's subject, I have not heard or read a review of the WT Ref. What are the qualities that make this darkhorse such a star?

As mentioned earlier, I have lived with the Orbe (SMEV/Koetsu Onyx Sig/Trichord Delphini) and for me the difference between that and the budget Vpi I am currently using was not vast overall, although the Vpi lacks the bass weight and solidity of the more expensive combo. Having said that, the presentation of the Vpi/Dynavector combination seems to have more life. Another example of personal preference I guess, whilst the Orbe setup should sound dramatically better, and probably would to some, it was not so in many of the areas that matter to me.

 

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by Uncle Ants
Nick the arm and cart off your old Rega and a Michell Tecnodec almost does it for the money ... doesn't bounce about either ... you can get a lid too ... if you want one ... and its black :JPS:

Hmm - that's an idea - though I don't have TOO many problems using an Orbe so I'd prefer the Gyro at minimum...

Tones - believe you me - if IN MY EXPERIENCE I'd had a great experience with Linn I'd praise them. I don't set out to hate LP12s, it's just that from my experience there's nothing to commend them over other decks, though the one in Audio-T is the only one I've heard I'd like to own. BTW - I've heard 4 LP12s - Henryt's, Audio-T's, one at a show and the one when I dem'd the Planar 3.

Don't forget dude that yours sits in a cabinet with all the other gear, so has a LOT of mass helping it NOT to jump/warble. Plus - yours has the Trampolin on it doesn't it?

 

[ReJoyce]

Originally posted by Paul Duerden
Jason,
The belt drives a pulley, which then drives the idler which is then engaged to drive the platter.

Blimey, that is a sort of weirdly elegant solution! Bit confused as to what the idler adds though, does it act like a flywheel? Can't get flywheels out of my head since looking at that super heavy Greek thing the guy from Athens posted a link to.

Cheers

Jason

 

[Paul Duerden]

One thing that has just hit me is that the `124 had to go at 33, 45 and 78, with pitch adjustment for all those speeds. I'll take a guess that doing that is a hell of a lot easier with an idler than with a belt.

Maybe why they used the idler?

 

[Uncle Ants]

Originally posted by domfjbrown
Hmm - that's an idea - though I don't have TOO many problems using an Orbe so I'd prefer the Gyro at minimum...

Would be nice ... blows yer budget though. If you wanted I could lend you the strange springy feet I used to have on my Focus One (swapped for gyro feet - they disconcerted the hell out of me). You could have a bouncy tecnodec then haha

 

[ReJoyce]

Re: Jason

>>> Hi Jason, I use a pair of Neumann Tube Microphone coils (wound to match the Koetsus's very low output) mounted in a wee box sitting below the Orbe's Mørch armplate (i.e. a v.short distance for the .25 mV signal to be stepped up) -- works for me.

fox,

Pleasure to read your erdite postings btw.
Do you use a standard cable to link it all up. (bearing in mind the following please feel free to ignore me ;->) I would think some MIC cable would work well but could be too high capacitance.


>>> Ever had a HiFi where it just does what you want and you don't want to mess with it because one change might make it all unravel?

Every now and then but then somebody pops round and plays me there new box or, recently, AlexS finds another mains fiddle I should try but am generally too lazy to bother with. Fortunately, right now I am in a good position with the system to offset my poor financial position so my manic upgrading days are/have to be over. Last piece was discovering how good the old two box Micromega sounds connected via its balanced outputs to the balanced ins of the DV L300, one box less to worry about, especially nice since it is the second source. It is a pleasure to get off of the treadmill that leads to 12k pre-amps over the last few years, interesting to see how long it lasts with more boxes for review. Luckily I mainly get the more entry level stuff.

Cheers

Jason

 

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by Uncle Ants
Would be nice ... blows yer budget though. If you wanted I could lend you the strange springy feet I used to have on my Focus One (swapped for gyro feet - they disconcerted the hell out of me). You could have a bouncy tecnodec then haha

Aha - but I have NO budget due to being skint! One day in the next two years I might upgrade the deck (been saying that for about five years now!!!)...

...first off, got a dem for a potential new CDP dem - Naim CD5i/5/Rega Planet 3/whatever else in that range on Saturday. If I like what I hear I might take the plunge, so if it's good, the turntable might then have to be upgraded by default to match it... My current mk1 Planet is so far behind it's laughable (upgrading due to the transport getting noisy)...

...mind you, I might just use my Toshiba 1988 CDP I scored today from work FOR FREE - that with Howard Jones' Dream into action on CD will be a nice ear/tweeter destroying incident!!! At least the Tosh is multibit

 

[tones]

Originally posted by domfjbrown
Tones - believe you me - if IN MY EXPERIENCE I'd had a great experience with Linn I'd praise them. I don't set out to hate LP12s, it's just that from my experience there's nothing to commend them over other decks,

Don't forget dude that yours sits in a cabinet with all the other gear, so has a LOT of mass helping it NOT to jump/warble. Plus - yours has the Trampolin on it doesn't it?

(a) Fine, but it's only your experience, which is not definitive for all LP12s. Therefore, you simply do not have the right to say that all LP12s are bad, unless, as I say, you're determined to destroy all your credibility. Perhaps it would be better to phrase your initial comments along the lines of "In my experience..." (as you've belatedly now done), or "LP12s I have heard have behaved thus", yes, I know, very boring, unpunchy, patent attorney-cautious language, but more sensible. And you've never heard me saying that they're commendable over other decks, have you? The point is, they can be very good, therefore condemning the entire breed in such forceful terms on the strength of a few you've heard is just silly.

(b) Not any more it doesn't - it's joined No.2 set-up downstairs and now sits all alone on top of a cabinet, with the rest of the stuff over on my desk. Of course, this is a Swiss house, with solid concrete floors, meaning that I could hit the floor with a sledgehammer next to the cabinet and the LP12 wouldn't notice. Nevertheless, as you can see, it means that there are circumstances in which an LP12 will behave itself, so your blanket condemnation is, again, clearly wrong.

P.S. Forgot, no, no Trampolinn. Bog standard.

 

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by tones
Perhaps it would be better to phrase your initial comments along the lines of "In my experience..." (as you've belatedly now done), or "LP12s I have heard have behaved thus", yes, I know, very boring, unpunchy

Aha - but that's not entirely true, because the LP12 at Audio-T despite its flaws sounded punchy and VERY unboring - especially with Love's "Forever Changes"; the warbling when people walked around killed it but when people weren't moving around it sounded ace, so I know there's at least one out there that can hold a tune

I think a lot of my problem is that I'm an ENTP so I don't tend to like the "common choice". But I'm also a Gemini so self-contradictory, hence why I like my Rega!!

Originally posted by tones
P.S. Forgot, no, no Trampolinn. Bog standard.

Blimey - I'm surprised you don't get problems with footfall etc then - though as mentioned before, all that mass probably helps

 

[Steven Toy]

After 16 pages we are unfortunately still on-topic...

 

[domfjbrown]

What did you guys have for supper last night?

He he - worth a try

Tones - the most boring Linn I've heard is the CD12 Avoid....

 

[Paul Ranson]

the warbling when people walked around killed it

What do you mean by 'warbling'? If you shake a turntable (any turntable) then that's bad. But I've never heard an LP12 'warble'.

FWIW if the suspension is in the ball park you should be able to give the record label a tap during play and the suspension will bounce but the stylus won't jump. No warble either.

Paul

 

[domfjbrown]

Serious wow - like as in a walkman without anti-roll. Not pleasant to listen to...

I've never seen that label tap test - would be interesting to see

 

[ReJoyce]

>>>So back to the thread's subject, I have not heard or read a review of the WT Ref. What are the qualities that make this darkhorse such a star?

Due at least partly to the wacky design (falling bearing and damped arm) it offers some things very few other decks manage:
Deep silence, Serious stability, no-resonance, big power ... all adds up to lots of music that many decks just can't resolve.
See hear for some techie detail: http://www.welltemperedlab.com/frameset1.html

There was a very good, if slightly round, review in the Absolute Sound June/July 2003 by Robert E. Greene. Its a well written review and I identify with what he is saying but he might have cloth-ears for all I know. I only have scanned jpgs (1.4MB) so here are some quotes:

"Welcome to the state of the art, and at a price you can afford"
For Bub: "The master tape sound is very vivid in dynamic charachter but at the same time it is extremely relaxed ... And it is essentially the sound you hear from the WT Ref. if you use a suitable cartridge."
"...the Well Tempered without question deals the all-important noise issues as well as anything I have encountered."
"what I do want to suggest, is that the WT is very much an instance of how one can reach very near the outer boundaries of the possible by using brains instead of money"
Reduced wordcount to ease my typing finger "... reviewers seem ... in love with ... spending money ... if I was you I would listen very hard to a well set-up WT ref. and think hard before I shelled out any more than its price"

Cheers

Jason

PS. ...
>>>I am however, very lucky to have a number of friends in the industry, some of whome might even be able to converse on Paul's level

Knowing what a humble and self-deprecating fellow he is I reckon Paul is well and truly embarrassed by Micks comments.

 

[Marco]

Merlin

Originally posted by merlin

If you are all honest, that's what this thread is all about, attempting to belittle others opinions in the knowledge that they won't be round to extend a greeting with their forehead.

It's not what its about as far as I'm concerned, perhaps you're allowing your agenda with Naim and Mana users to cloud your judgement on such matters?

I certainly haven't seem much in the way of intelligent conversation, more the typical slanging match that is guaranteed when a certain group of folk gather at this place. Good fun though, even if it is totally pointless.

Well, I'm sorry to disagree, Merlin, but having just scanned through this thread from the beginning, there's plenty in the way of intelligent discussion, and a fair degree of healthy banter, which is what it's all about. I even found this erudite contribution from your good self amongst it all:

"Just because an engineer uses a particular loudspeaker for mastering work does not mean that everyone will neccessarily enjoy listening to music on them."

...Which is exactly how I feel when I listen to equipment that, in my opinion, trades musical enjoyment for 'accuracy', part of what we were discussing earlier.

To expand on "the shop", I should possibly add " where I had a demo" to the end of the sentance. I am not a dealer, and haven't been for over a decade.

Thank you for clarifying this for me. So you used to be a dealer, what was your business called? I was just wondering if I knew of it or not. Did you sell Naim or Mana?

Marco.