Turntables...

I did congratulate him on moving on from the ninja to the SME and I also said on a number of occasions that the SME is a very fine deck

However some of Bubs methods and statements are highly suspect and part of the process of open discussion is to subject them to scrutiny. I hope he will keep a more open mind now that one set of his preconceptions has been blown wide open. Next ... his naim amps, atc and mana!

 

Thanks chaps, I appreciate the good wishes.

BBV, I am not going to get into a peeing contest with you. I am absolutely delighted with the SME, and don't have the time nor inclination to investigate any others. I am content with this situation, because demoing turntables in any meaningful way is frankly too much effort for me.

Unpacking & setting up the turntable & arm took me about five hours. Running-in the main bearing will take a month. It has already exceeded my expectations. Think about it.

 

So you've heard ten records, on at least three different SME decks, in shops, and you think this constitutes enough data to base your opinion on? Was the cartridge switched over between decks at these demos? SM reached the opposite conclusion, how do you explain that?

 

I thought you didnt want to get into a peeing contest?

Yes indeed. With a number of different cartridges all of which left the essential character unchanged. So the only variables were the arm and deck. Given that the deck came fitted with the arm from sme setup is unlikely to be an issue.

SM played it through valves and horns. Not everyone wants the truth. I suspect the supporting system can account for the divergence of opinion.

 

Bub,

Great to see you have the new deck up and running and , so far, seem happy with it.

I totally agree with you comments earlier, regarding what the SME can and can't do with regard rock vs classical. I would say when I went from LP12 to Orbe classical was one area that the Orbe left the LP12 flailing a little.

Sit back and get that bearing and arm cable burnt in and enjoy your records.

 

I suspect this statement reveals a belief that you cannot engineer a system using valves and horns to provide a flat response if that was your goal.

There is absolutely no reason why you cannot have ''the truth'' from valves and horns.

Whether designers believe ''the truth'' to be something that is enjoyable to listen to and build it into their designs is more a matter of personal design choice than it has to do with choice of amplification type and speaker technology.

 

Agreed in theory. But in practice... those kondo amps sure did sound "nice".

 

Audio Note wouldnt have been the first name on my lips of manufacturers of horn or valve equipment who strive for flat response, even at the expense of producing a musically enjoyable product.

I very much enjoy Audionote products, but I have no interest in the neutrality of the products I buy or like, merely whether I enjoy the music coming out or not.

 

Um. The arm geometry is adjustable, you know. I'm not in a peeing contest, just questioning your methods. Be happy with the Brinkmann, as I am with the SME. Ecstatic, in fact.

 

Thats fair enough but then its an "illusion engine" and not "hifi" if it doesnt strive to be accurate.

 

Yes but they didnt adjust it and left it as sme intended.

If a deck is not setup properly outside of certain limits it will sound "wrong" as well as "worse" and its easy to spot if you have spent a lot of time fine tuning geometry.

I suspect if you change that prefix for something better the gap between the ninja and the sme will widen enormously.

 

My problem with the word ''accurate'' is in the translation you are putting on it.

What if the recording artist themselves listens to a (using your term) 'coloured' system next to one with near perfect measurements and says ''that is what I wanted people to hear when I recorded my album''.

Which one is accurate - the one which doesnt measure perfectly but ACCURATELY reflects what the original artist intended you to hear?

What if the recording engineer mastered the album to sound as it should on a ''coloured'' hifi - and it sounds nearer to what he intended on the coloured system, and therefore MORE ACCURATE.

What if, in designing a speaker (for example) a designer strives for a flat response, and in doing so has to remove other important aspects such as soundstage or dynamics in order to create the measurement required? Is this more accurate, less accurate or more accurate in one regard and less in others?

You've taken the word ''accurate'' and twisted it to mean 'flat response' or 'a studio monitor' and nothing else may apply.

 

Thats two different things. The role of a component - say an amplifier is take an input signal and multiply it in the voltage and current domains perfectly. If the artist wanted you to hear it a different way then he should have reflected that in the recording and not expect it to be in the playback equipment. If he did so then the accurate equipment would play back that recorded intention accurately. If he didnt put it on the recording thats his problem. Again if the engineer mixed for a walkman that again is his problem. If your kit reverses those transformations then it will also apply the inverse to a properly mixed recording. The only sensible solution is accuracy and engineering otherwise it just descends into voodoo.

Accurate means signal in equals signal out subject to certain scalings that do not effect frequency or phase or transfer function.

 

Thats my very point BBV

You are presuming that all engineers, all recording artists and the music industry at large mixes songs to sound right on studio equipment in a domestic environment.

They dont!

They master music to sound right on domestic hifi in domestic premises and bog standard car systems in bog standard cars.

To say ''they should'' doesn't change a thing.. it isn't his/her problem - they aren't the ones with studio equipment in their houses - it's your problem

Quoting a definition of 'accurate' that fits in with your philosophy doesn't make it any more appropriate or any more correct.

I can define an album to be accurately rendered when the musical experience obtained by the listener reflects what the artist and studio engineer intended.

It is no suprise therefore that so many people when choosing a hifi decide to go for a 'bigger and better' version of a budget system with all of the boosts at certain frequencies and other idiosyncrasies such systems may have.

Frankly BBV I believe you are so caught up in your own ideologies that you can't see the wood for the trees.

 

It doesnt matter what they record for - the aim of a "high fidelity" system is to play back whatever they did in high fidelity. If they mixed it for a cheap walkman then that is their "problem" or perhaps I shuld say "intent". I know full well that this occurs. However if the recording engineer cant get it on the recording and has to rely on the playback kit to put it back then he doesnt know how to do his job. However you shouldnt build a system with colourations to counteract certain recording engineers inclinations atthe expense of all the others - unless you listen to a very narrow range of music and recording styles. I dont so adding a colouration this way is unacceptable as it will ruin those recordings which are aimed at high fidelity systems. I think you have taken on the valve ideology far too readily.

The recording should accurately render what the artist and engineer intended. The hifi system should accurately render the recording. To suggest anything else is folly. (no offence obviously).

I can define accurate mathematically if required

 

The answer, of course, is to have a few audiophile pressings that sound good on your hifi & listen to nothing else.

 

I havent ever tried those pressings - do they really sound any better?

 

humbug BBV

I wasnt even talking about my own system (which comprises of components you've never heard, so WTF would you know?) - I can say that categorically, as few of them are standard.

You stick with whatever makes you happy, and good luck to you.

Universal panacea my arse, however.

 

I wouldn't bank on it!

 

SME supply the arm separately from the deck, and it's up to the user to attach the chosen cartridge to the arm, the arm to the deck, and set downforce, VTA, HTA, and bias.