Utter idiot's guide to buying a budget turntable

kermit said:
Before you go into this do some research around your town.
I bought a tt set up a couple of years ago , my mind was full of romantic ideas of trawling through s/h shops finding decent vinyl .
Then I realised my town only has one s/h vinyl shop worth talking about :o and the prices weren,t cheap .
So unless you actually get out to larger cities(I don,t) where you actually have a lot of choice , make sure that your home town actually has some decent vinyl shops.
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Well I'd have thought Dunc's hometown of Edinburgh shouldn't be too badly served vinyl wise and there are other options.

Ebay is still worth a look so long as you don't hanker after rarities which tend to be overvalued.

Record fairs can be pricey, but here are bargains to be had.

Charity shops whilst 90% James Last, Mantovani, Great Hammond Hits and Phil Collins :rolleyes: are well worth checking out. If you go in reasonably regularly and if its a Saturday morning go early, you'll be surprised what you can find - recently I've picked up pretty minty Peter Gabriel, Jam, Bob Marley, Marciah Griffiths, Kraftwerk, Adam and tyhe Ants (Dirk Wears White Socks) etc. etc. all at £1.50 or less. You've just got to arrive before the rest of the vultures :-) PDSA is best value and for some reason Oxfam have the best selections (but their prices are steeper). People shy away because they worry aboiut the state of them, but you would be surprised, usually pretty good or nothing a good scrub won't sort out. If Classical's your thing then charity shops really could be a goldmine.
 
Second everything Uncle Ants has said about availability of vinyl in charity shops, and would add car boot sales to the list of cheap vinyl sources. I, personally, have found car boot sales to be a more regular source of vinyl, with charity shops around my way always seeming to have the same stock in store.

There are exceptions, though, and persistance pays off in the end, as I picked up a total of 38 lp's last week on two seperate trips to the same (Save the Children) shop, all for the princely sum of £1.00 each.

If you're new to the whole vinyl thing, as others have suggested, I think I would aim for something like a Rega Planar 2 to see if you like what vinyl does, and then go from there.

Good luck with it, and I wish you many hours of vinyl enjoyment if you do opt to buy,

Chris.
 
Ooh, lots of replies - thanks for the advise! Meanwhile, I have some news...

I hadn't realised how much of an impulse buyer I am, but now I know... I've just come back from a trip to the local 2nd-hand/vintage hifi dealer (who specialises in vinyl to some extent and who I've known for a good few years and who I know to be a good guy), and the 2nd-hand record shop across the street...

So I now have a Rega Planar 2 (mint, with wood surround and old-style Rega arm and I think a half-decent Rega cart, but I'll have to double-check... not that I care much...), a Musical Fidelity XLPS, and 110 quids worth of tasty 2nd hand vinyl (about 40 records)l! I'm quite an excited puppy! The only reason I'm typing this and not playing with my new toy is that in my excitement I managed to leave the XLPS (and the little rubber mat that goes an the platter) at the shop! (Thankfully, the shop owner's wife is a lovely lady and she'll be bringing it round for me after closing up shop. \o/ )

Now, I am a complete virgin when it comes to this so don't laugh too hard at me if I done got screwed - I got the Planar 2 and the XLPS for GBP275, inc the cart and arm. He also had a P3 in the shop (with RB300 arm and a choice of Rega carts) but he said that with the same arm and cart the Planar 2 sounds almost identical to the P3. It would've been an extra 50-100 quid for the P3 (with RB300 and the basic Rega cart), and the shop owner convinced me that the Planar 2 would be fine for my purposes with one easy demo (aside from the fact that a salesman was trying to convince me to get the cheaper of two options - how often does that happen??) - he set up an LP12 with Valhalla and some expensive arm and a cartridge worth 300 quid and let me listen to a few tracks. Then he plonked the Rega on top of the Linn (to demonstrate lack of support finickiness :) ) and played the same music on it. And I preferred the Rega! Granted, the Linn was smoother, a bit more detailed, and more refined - but I just preferred the sound of the Rega. It was punchier, more lively, and more involving. (It was a rather good system too - Audio Research pre & power, EAR phono amp, and some funky new speakers whose name escapes me, but which sounded great - so I'll just have to see how the Rega sounds with my ATCs...)

In any case, the dealer's very helpful and he knows his stuff when it comes to TTs so if I paid a little above the going rate I don't mind as I know I can always come to him for help, advise, etc. Plus, if I wanted to change to a different TT down the line it won't be a problem to trade in the Rega towards it.

So anyway, now I need some advice on setting it up - a quick run through of setting the weights and things would be reeeeally appreciated! The shop owner went thru it with me but he had to leave in a hurry so it was a bit brief... and I've mostly forgotten it anyway..!

BTW, the Planar 2 was the cheapest deck he had in the shop, but he had some others for not too much more money, inc the aforementioned P3, a couple of LP12s, and a couple of Garrards. There was also one that intrigued me - an old Mission deck. Can't remember the model number but it was very heavy, gloss black, and had a Mission 77-something tonearm. The dealer said it was a top notch deck and he said he preferred it to pretty much anything this side of a grand. He said he would sell it for 300 quid but that it probably wouldn't suit my situation seeing as I told him there's a good chance I might want to trade up to something better a few months down the line and the resale value of the Mission wouldn't be very good as it isn't very well-known (unlike the Regas and Linns).

Any thoughts? As I said, he's very flexible and if I wanted to change for one of the other decks in the next couple of weeks it probably wouldn't be a problem. Should I investigate one/some of the other decks or just be happy with my Rega? (I'm inclined to do the latter, but I must say something about that Mission intrigued me... And I love the look of the old Garrard beasts! :D )

Dunc

P.S. - Views an the MF XPLS would also be appreciated, as it seems to hold its value very well and I could probably get more than 100 quid for it on eBay... Is it worth hanging on to or should I sell it and go for one of the 40 quid jobbies? The shop guy said in his opinion the MF is an awful lot better than the cheapies, and even with budget decks it just doesn't make sense to compromise the performance with a crummy phono amp. What do you think?
 
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sorry guys,i just dont get this music first thing.Whats the point buying 1000 lps before you invest in some kit? I simply meant get the best you can afford.Maybe we are actually saying the same thing?

and I don't agree my cart is shagged John,my cdp blows away the Planar 3,with a new cart fitted by a dealer (£100 ortofon,can't see any point spending more than that,I only have 300 lps,mostly crappy seventiies rock recordings)
 
Okay, been trying to set up the TT according to the Rega manual (hooray for the interweb!) and I'm not sure what tracking force to set. I had another look and the cartridge is an obscure one - an Adcom GFC-1E. Ring any bells? Failing that, what would be a good setting generally speaking? I think the dealer mentioned 1.8g - sound good? (I really need to pay more attention...!)

Dunc
 
dunkyboy said:
Okay, been trying to set up the TT according to the Rega manual (hooray for the interweb!) and I'm not sure what tracking force to set. I had another look and the cartridge is an obscure one - an Adcom GFC-1E. Ring any bells? Failing that, what would be a good setting generally speaking? I think the dealer mentioned 1.8g - sound good? (I really need to pay more attention...!)

Dunc
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Without the manuf. recommendation who knows (and a google search certainly suggests its a bit obscure). That said. 1.8g doesn't sound unlikely. 1.5g to 2g is fairly normal for most MM carts going back a fairly long time.

I just love impulse buys like this :D That said, I'd have probably gone for the P3 myself, if only for the better arm (and its tweaky possibilities). But set it up, run it and see how you like it. If you do and at some point decide you want something a bit more, you are unlikely to lose out by much.

Oh and for some setup FAQS, try here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/d.pl?audio/faq.html

Go about half way down to Helge Gundersen's Cartridge Setup Links and take your pick. Lots of good info there.
 
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Duncan, you're a man after my own heart. :)

Ditch the cartridge, you don't know where it's been. The no thought required budget MM option is something from the Goldring 1000 range, they start at about £80 IIRC, but there are plenty of other options too, including Rega's own carts.

PM me your address and I'll send you a spare Shure tracking force gauge I have laying around unused. It's quite a bit more accurate than relying on the counterweight markings.

Regas are nice and easy to set up, beyond setting the tracking weight towards the top end of the manufacturer recommendations (too little weight will do more damage than a fraction too much), getting it the right way up and level, there's not much else to worry about provided it's on a reasonably rigid support.

Rega Planars (unlike the new P versions) have a transferrable lifetime warranty from Rega too, so even if it blows up you're covered.

Have fun!

-- Ian
 
The Regas are very easy to set up,but I would have suggested the P25 over the planer 2,I had the planer 3,but found the P25 far superior.

Anyway, you can have some fun with a Rega,for not alot of dosh it can really sing.So firstly look a different cart,try a older Shure V15 MKIII,it's old is about £50 on ebay,a replacement stylus from musonic is only £30.I used a Goldring G1042 before the Shure,I much prefer the shure,it really is a good MM still on a Rega.

Instead of a MF phono stage,try a little Creek OBH,wow are these things good,really bubbly engaging sound,lack ultimate detail,but will get the most out of the Rega,a OBH8se about £80 second hand,latest model about £180.

You mention you don't fancy tweaking,I liked tweaking my P25,try the origin Live counter weight or alternative,tightens up the bass,and stereo focus I found,you could even do the incognito arm rewire for the RB arm.

Then Phew!!! add the exellent Heed Audio orbit power supply about £200,or even a Iron Audio acrylic platter,I've done alot of the tweeks on my Rega P25 with a Dynavector cart,and it sounds awesome,needs no attention or maintenace.My Rega Planer3 was over 20 years old,only ever changed the rubber band!
 
I kinda missed this whole thread until too late! :(

1) Would I change the cart?
Hmm. I think what I would do is take the cart back to the shop and say you want to keep the TT but just pay a bit more and can you change the cart. I'd be telling him I wanted a current Rega/Ortofohn or similar MM cartridge - so that you can get a new needle for it when it seems to be past its best.

Another option is to trade in the cart. I believe DNM do trade ins. I'd do what I said above instead though.

2) The MF XLPS. Good enough for where the rest of the kit is, absolutely IMHO.

3) Lets get some music :D
Try www.netsounds.co.uk and www.gemm.com for starters.

I also agree car boots are better than charity shops. Even better are people you meet who dont want their vinyl anymore. I got into Vinyl by swapping a nice jacket with a mate for his 50-100 LPs. Some people just dont value their vinyl now.

Oh, get yourself a carbon brush, the Hunt brush is a nice one. www.audiophilecandy.co.uk

NB
Im sure the deck is fine, Id go with what sideshow said, get some more music.

Mind you, my kit is 2 or 3 times my music price, so maybe I shouldnt give such advice..
 
Okay, had a fun evening last night running thru some of my new records.

I'm still not 100% sure I've got everything set up right - I've ordered the HFN setup record so that should help, and Ian is very graciously sending me a tracking weight gauge, though it doesn't help that I still don't know the recommended tracking weight for the cart (it's so obscure even Google comes up with only 2 unhelpful hits!) I'm going on the dealer's suggestion to use 1.8g, though I don't know if that's an official spec or just a guess on his (or the original owner's) part...

But anyway, it sounds pretty good. Not stunning, but then I wasn't expecting stunning. :) It's very lively and fun and easy to listen to - it's much less "edgy" than any CD player I've heard, without sounding soft or rounded off. I think the upper mids are a bit too thick and overprojected to be convincing, there isn't too much detail retrieval, imaging is a bit soft and imprecise, there isn't much depth or 3-dimensionality, and the bass is definitely on the light side, but despite all that I still like how it sounds. :)

I'd quite like to find a cartridge (or perhaps a whole new deck?) that has a clearer, more restrained midband, and I certainly miss the holographic imaging of the Meridian, but other than that I'm quite happy with the sound.

That said, I'm still trying to get the hang of the effect of the condition of the records themselves on sound quality. The first disc I put on was Dire Straits (self-titled) and it sounded pretty bad (certainly a LOT worse than the CD) - I thought I must've botched something in the setup - but then I tried Tracy Chapman and the sound was a lot better. Other records varied a bit but mostly sounded around the level of the Tracy Chapman disc (i.e. better than the Dire Straits). Then I put on the Travelling Wilburys (Vol. 1), which I paid 15 quid for (a veritable fortune compared to the 2-3 quid most of them were! ;) ) and is in absolute pristine quality (it's gorgeous :) ). Oh momma did it sound good! Clearly better than any of the other records I'd played. Clearer in the midband, deeper bass, more depth, more detail, and better imaging. Still not up to the standards of the Meridian in "hifi" terms, but at least as enjoyable to listen to, and compared to the previous records it sounded stunning (it helped that the music is absolutely brilliant and brought back wonderful memories of my childhood.....)

So do you think this is all down to the condition of the records? And can I assume that a better deck won't help matters? (Or do better decks make the most of poor quality records?) Also, I know a knackered stylus can damage records but does it work the other way too? I.e. can a poor condition record damage a stylus?

Anyway, I'm very happy with my purchase even though I'm already thinking about swapping/upgrading (I think my standards for quality have been set rather high by the Meridian...) There's definitely something about the sound of records that appeals to me - I'm not sure how to describe it but they just sound like a direct path to the original sound rather than a clever reconstruction of the sound. Sounds a bit silly but there's definitely something good about it. (It could well be those "euphonic distortions" people go on about - who knows, who cares, I like it. :) )

Dunc
 
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Some pics of the deck and the records. :)

tt1.jpg

tt2.jpg

tt3.jpg
 
And yes, the deck is indeed too wide to fit on my [cheap-ass] equipment stand so it has to go sideways. :D Thankfully the feet are close enough together that it fits alright this way.

Dunc
 
Dunc,

Just a couple of quick thoughts: the RB250 arm is not as acclaimed as the RB300 but it is a pretty good arm. In fact, the OriginLive rewiring/upgrade for it is better than for the RB300 and cheaper, so you have a very versatile arm that can beat an OLRB300.

On the cartridges side, depends on what music you prefer to listen to. If it is pop/rock I would go with Dynavector. But also give Denon a go. I have a high output DL-160 which I find brilliant and really good VFM. It beats much more expensive carts IMHO. It may however be hard to get hold of, but there are other good value Denons around.

Hope this helps.
Jack
 
Dunc,

IME the quality of the pressings has a lot of impact. Having said that, I never felt as much harshness in any recording as I have heard before with some cd productions coming through my system.

Surface noise (and scratches) can be tweaked to some extent. The angle of the stylus and most importantly the counterweight can have a real impact on this. You'll have to experiment. Of course, the more the cartridge uncovers the more you will notice differences in recordings, and this is where you have to be careful. You may come to a point where the goal of using vinyl as a money saver gets lots, and you only buy mint/expensive pressings.

Jack

PS: Nice pics, the deck looks in pretty good shape!
 
JackOTrades said:
PS: Nice pics, the deck looks in pretty good shape!
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Thanks, it is rather handsome. :) I would be loathe to change it for the P3 if only because the P3 is so much uglier. ;)

As for cartridges, seems a tricky one. Everyone seems to have their favourites - Goldring, Shure, Dynavector, Denon... and it doesn't help that demoing them beforehand is made rather tricky by their perishable nature... D'oh! Guess I'll speak to the dealer and see what he'd be up for. Or I could just take a leap of faith and buy one of the abovementioned ones blind....

The one aspect of the sound at the moment that bothers me the most is this overly strong upper-midband and the somewhat thick/muddy midband generally. As an ATC junkie and a realism fiend, a clear, natural midband is very high on my list of hifi priorities. Does that suggest any particular make/model of cartridge..?

Of course it could be that the SQ niggles are caused by the deck itself, or by the tonearm.... sigh... tricky, this. Maybe I'll just get back to enjoying my Credence disc. :)

Dunc
 
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BTW, does anyone recognise the arm? It's a Rega arm, pre-RB series. I'm having trouble tracking it down on the net.

Dunc
 
sideshowbob said:
He could spend a lot more and buy a secondhand LP12 on the same basis, but more work is involved getting it properly set up, so my view is still that if he's worried a P3 won't be good enough to make a proper judgement, he should consider a P25 or Notts Analogue Horizon. But the main thing is to buy a reasonable selection of records, a couple new and pristine, but mostly good condition secondhand, and just play them at home and see if he likes the experience of going secondhand record shopping, finding something new and interesting for a couple of quid, and then collapsing on the sofa listening to great records. If he does, comparisons with the CD player will become totally irrelevant.

-- Ian
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Agreed! A couple of years ago, I wanted to get into vinyl with only a handful of LPs in my collection. So I took the view that if I was going to go down that route, it had to be with a deck that would make me enjoy the music or format and make me want to buy more and more records (but with none of the constant adjustment hassles that some TTs are famous for). Luckily, a friend loaned me his Rega P25 (his no.2 deck) and some records for two weeks whilst he was away on business. That meant I was able to listen to the P25 in my own system for two whole weeks and this helped me decide whether to go down the vinyl route or stick to CD. I liked what I heard, bought a different deck to the P25 and rest as they say is now history. I am now buying lots of records, old and new, and enjoying the medium immensely. In fact I am now tempted to say that if you don't have a turntable on your rack you are not ââ'¬Â¦Ã¢â'¬Â¦Ã¢â'¬Â¦Ã¢â'¬Â¦Ã¢â'¬Â¦Ã¢â'¬Â¦Ã¢â'¬Â¦. ;)

So I say to anyone interested in going down the TT route, buy the best deck you can afford that would, at least, give you a good measure of what the format is all about (with minimum set-up or adjustment hassles) and if you don't like it, sell it and stick to CD or SACD or whatever. Btw, contrary to popular belief, clicks and pops are hardly ever present in my vinyl playing system and when they occur, which is very, very rarely, I hardly hear them as they either appear to be below the surface of audibility or irritation or I am just too engrossed in the music to notice.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.:D
 
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dunkyboy said:
BTW, does anyone recognise the arm? It's a Rega arm, pre-RB series. I'm having trouble tracking it down on the net.

Dunc
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I think that before the RB300 Rega used Acos arms. A Japanese OEM supplier. There used to be one called the "Lustre", but a web search suggests that this had a different bearing arrangement - the OEM manufacturers were very obliging in those days and big enough manufacturers could get specials. Looks like you have an SME shell on there - it was (depending a little on the cartridge) the fashion to substitute something more butch.
 
The arm looks like an RB200. Not sure if it has the same mount as an RB250, but if it does (TonyL or SCIDB are bound to know) it might be worth scoring a secondhand RB250 or RB300, although I'd leave it as it is for now and just get used to it. Tweaks can come later. If you get the bug and find yourself buying lots of vinyl you can sell the Rega as-is for what you paid for it and simply buy a better deck.

One of the nice things about TTs is that there is undoubtedly a connection between spending more and getting better quality - you do tend to get what you pay for with TTs. Better decks, arms, and cartridges will have very low surface noise on all reasonable-condition vinyl. Having said that, your deck should mostly sound pretty damned good. I've already suggested ditching the cart and I still think you should. You'll get 20 different suggestions as to what to try, my own preference would be one of the Goldring 1000 series.

-- Ian
 

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