My name is Ron
It is, it really is
Hmm, I've been wondering what to do with those old pairs of leopard-skin thongs.
Utter idiot's guide to buying a budget turntable
- Thread starter dunkyboy
- Start date
Hmm, I've been wondering what to do with those old pairs of leopard-skin thongs.
Well I've got the Goldring brush on order, should be here any day. Was thinking this would be enough to get rid of the bulk of the dust/dirt? Not so? The dealer I got the TT from does a record cleaning service I believe; shall have to find out if this is affordable...
Dunc
Dunc
My name is Ron
It is, it really is
The Goldring brush is fine if the record is already clean. It won't lift deep dirt and grime, however. You could invest in something like a Knosti (around £40), but the more I think about it the more I like Uncle Ants' pants method.
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
'old pants' = funny
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
My name is Ron said:
Not the leopard skin ones, I've stitched those together to make a giant comfort blanket for Auntie Ants. For cleaning records, its BIG pants you want
Dunc, Your Goldring brush will lift dust but won't get real grubby ones deep down clean. I can't afford a record celaing machine (not yet anyways) and ought to get a Knosti (but just haven't got round to it). I use a seperate carbon fibre brush for cleaning than for lifting dust and of course pants
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Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
Dunc,
You have PM.
Tony
You have PM.
Tony
A friend of mine, whose dad is an old hand at vinyl, sent me an email regarding turntable setup (after asking his dad) and at the end of it he says the following:
"By the way, never screw or unscrew a cartridge into
the arm's headshell while its all mounted onto the
record deck. The torque forces needed to tighten or
loosen the screws can destroy the arm bearings."
Is this true? How delicate is the tonearm and its bearings? Mine has a detachable headshell so it shouldn't be too much of a problem, but I think after aligning the cart I probably did the final screw tightening with the headshell attached (it seemed quite likely that if i detached the headshell to do it I would probably throw off the alignment, which had been very fiddly and unfun...)
The reason I ask is because I'm still getting that crackly sound I mentioned before. I'm not sure but it mostly seems to be worse towards the inner part of the record. It's definitely a LOT worse on some records than others.
So I wonder, is it possible I've buggered the tonearm's bearings, and this is causing the crackling? Seems a tad farfetched, but hardly impossible...
I still haven't gotten around to trying my HFN test record, which should hopefully give me a better idea of how well- or not-so-well setup the deck is. I'll do that today. And I never got round to trying Uncle Ants' cart... I think I'll give that a quick try before I put it in the post this afternoon. If the crackle goes away I've presumably either buggered my cart or just had it set up wrong. And if the crackle stays it seems more likely that the arm might be buggered (though it could again be down to poor setup...)
Anyway, any ideas about this tonearm bearing business? Do ye without detachable headshells actually have to remove the whole arm to attach a cartridge?? Seems like it would make a tiresome, fiddly job monumentally more so!
Dunc
P.S. - Tony, sorry for the delay, I've been strangely busy the past few days! I'll give your cart a quick whirl then I'll chuck it in the post today. You should have it by tomorrow, or Friday at the latest.
"By the way, never screw or unscrew a cartridge into
the arm's headshell while its all mounted onto the
record deck. The torque forces needed to tighten or
loosen the screws can destroy the arm bearings."
Is this true? How delicate is the tonearm and its bearings? Mine has a detachable headshell so it shouldn't be too much of a problem, but I think after aligning the cart I probably did the final screw tightening with the headshell attached (it seemed quite likely that if i detached the headshell to do it I would probably throw off the alignment, which had been very fiddly and unfun...)
The reason I ask is because I'm still getting that crackly sound I mentioned before. I'm not sure but it mostly seems to be worse towards the inner part of the record. It's definitely a LOT worse on some records than others.
So I wonder, is it possible I've buggered the tonearm's bearings, and this is causing the crackling? Seems a tad farfetched, but hardly impossible...
I still haven't gotten around to trying my HFN test record, which should hopefully give me a better idea of how well- or not-so-well setup the deck is. I'll do that today. And I never got round to trying Uncle Ants' cart... I think I'll give that a quick try before I put it in the post this afternoon. If the crackle goes away I've presumably either buggered my cart or just had it set up wrong. And if the crackle stays it seems more likely that the arm might be buggered (though it could again be down to poor setup...)
Anyway, any ideas about this tonearm bearing business? Do ye without detachable headshells actually have to remove the whole arm to attach a cartridge?? Seems like it would make a tiresome, fiddly job monumentally more so!
Dunc
P.S. - Tony, sorry for the delay, I've been strangely busy the past few days! I'll give your cart a quick whirl then I'll chuck it in the post today. You should have it by tomorrow, or Friday at the latest.
My name is Ron
It is, it really is
I'm no expert, but that could be more a routine case of end-of-side distortion.
I think it's all to do with the angle of the cartridge, its tracking ability, and the quality of the vinyl pressing. I used to suffer this a lot with my old cartridge, a Goldring 1012, but it virtually disappeared when I changed to the Denon DL110.
Even so, I recently picked up a second-hand copy of Joni Mitchell's Hejira, and there are traces of distortion on her voice on the inner tracks. It's nothing too distracting, though. Try another cart just to check.
sideshowbob
Trisha
Crackling sounds odd. End of side distortion generally doesn't sound like crackling. Is it frying eggs sort of crackling?
As for buggering the bearings, you do need to be careful, although you'd have to be pretty hamfisted to do any serious damage if you mounted the cart carefully. It's good advice to do it with the arm off the deck if possible, but ultimately you always have to do the final bit of tightening with the arm on the deck, because it needs to be in place to set the alignment properly. You don't generally need to tighten the cart bolts too much, however. It appears many older Linn arms were buggered by people following the advice that "Linn tight" = "really tight".
-- Ian
As for buggering the bearings, you do need to be careful, although you'd have to be pretty hamfisted to do any serious damage if you mounted the cart carefully. It's good advice to do it with the arm off the deck if possible, but ultimately you always have to do the final bit of tightening with the arm on the deck, because it needs to be in place to set the alignment properly. You don't generally need to tighten the cart bolts too much, however. It appears many older Linn arms were buggered by people following the advice that "Linn tight" = "really tight".
-- Ian
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
Hi Dunc,
There's tight and there's tight - I don't think you can do too much harm to be honest. If worried about the bearings, take hold of it and gently wiggle it. If it moves ever so slightly in any other direction than its supposed to, you could have worn arm bearings.
Re the crackles - two possibilities. If it happens on all records new and old, then my guess is the cart is still misaligned and its end of side distortion. If it happens only on some of the old ones, then the records it happens on are worn (probably by someone previous to you with a worn out or misaligned cart themselves). If its the Dylan, then it probably "Beatles" syndrome - ie. its been played to death by some teenager throughout the sixties or early seventies on a dansette with a tracking weight approaching ounces rather than grams
It can be a bit of a lottery when you buy used vinyl - 80% of the time it pays off, but sometimes not.
Re the cart - when you are ready
There's tight and there's tight - I don't think you can do too much harm to be honest. If worried about the bearings, take hold of it and gently wiggle it. If it moves ever so slightly in any other direction than its supposed to, you could have worn arm bearings.
Re the crackles - two possibilities. If it happens on all records new and old, then my guess is the cart is still misaligned and its end of side distortion. If it happens only on some of the old ones, then the records it happens on are worn (probably by someone previous to you with a worn out or misaligned cart themselves). If its the Dylan, then it probably "Beatles" syndrome - ie. its been played to death by some teenager throughout the sixties or early seventies on a dansette with a tracking weight approaching ounces rather than grams
It can be a bit of a lottery when you buy used vinyl - 80% of the time it pays off, but sometimes not.Re the cart - when you are ready
Okay, some progress, though it doesn't look good.
Just had a play with the HFN test record and the anti-skate tests failed miserably. There's a very obvious buzz in the right channel. As in, blatant and on the first (quietest) track. And no matter how I set the anti-skating on the tonearm it won't go away, or even get the slightest bit quieter (or louder, even). I tried the full range on the anti-skating knob, from 0 to 2.
I double-checked the equipment rack and made sure it was as close to perfectly level as I could get it (which is pretty close).
So. Is it possible the anti-skating control is buggered? I must say, it feels odd when you turn the knob. It gets really really stiff at certain points, and then past that it moves freely (as in no resistance at all). And if you turn it all the way to one extreme and start turning it back, the stiff points change... (I don't know if that made any sense - quite hard to describe what I mean...) But it doesn't feel right. Surely it should be fairly smooth, but with some resistance. for the whole range of the dial?
Should I try a heavier tracking force? I reckon since the buzzing is only in the right channel I shouldn't bother with tracking weight adjustments as the anti-skating needs to be sorted first and foremost. Is that right? Or should I try a heavier force anyway? Earlier on (when I first got the cart) I tried setting it to the manufacturer's max recommended weight and it really ruined the sound - made it sound all closed in, both in terms of soundstage/imaging and dynamics - so I put it back at the recommended setting (1.5g).
BTW, just out of curiosity, which side of the groove corresponds with which audio channel?
So, yeah - help! I think I'll give the dealer a ring tomorrow and explain the situation to him. Maybe I can get him to swap me for the P3 he had in there? At the very least I could possibly bring in the deck and let him set it up.
Sigh...
Dunc
Just had a play with the HFN test record and the anti-skate tests failed miserably. There's a very obvious buzz in the right channel. As in, blatant and on the first (quietest) track. And no matter how I set the anti-skating on the tonearm it won't go away, or even get the slightest bit quieter (or louder, even). I tried the full range on the anti-skating knob, from 0 to 2.
I double-checked the equipment rack and made sure it was as close to perfectly level as I could get it (which is pretty close).
So. Is it possible the anti-skating control is buggered? I must say, it feels odd when you turn the knob. It gets really really stiff at certain points, and then past that it moves freely (as in no resistance at all). And if you turn it all the way to one extreme and start turning it back, the stiff points change... (I don't know if that made any sense - quite hard to describe what I mean...) But it doesn't feel right. Surely it should be fairly smooth, but with some resistance. for the whole range of the dial?
Should I try a heavier tracking force? I reckon since the buzzing is only in the right channel I shouldn't bother with tracking weight adjustments as the anti-skating needs to be sorted first and foremost. Is that right? Or should I try a heavier force anyway? Earlier on (when I first got the cart) I tried setting it to the manufacturer's max recommended weight and it really ruined the sound - made it sound all closed in, both in terms of soundstage/imaging and dynamics - so I put it back at the recommended setting (1.5g).
BTW, just out of curiosity, which side of the groove corresponds with which audio channel?
So, yeah - help! I think I'll give the dealer a ring tomorrow and explain the situation to him. Maybe I can get him to swap me for the P3 he had in there? At the very least I could possibly bring in the deck and let him set it up.
Sigh...
Dunc
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Hi Dunkyboy,
It sounds like mistracking to me (in my very limited experience). I had a Rega R200 (S shaped) and the anti skate is a rubber belt mechanism. The belt goes around the little black knob (underneath). Mine was broken & sounds like it felt like yours....that's the bad news. The worse news is it's not repairable (I just checked with Rega a couple of months ago). There is a screw on the underside of the black knob which let's you remove the knob - you'll then be able to see if the belt is snapped.
The good news is there is a way around it, though it is a bit Heath Robinson.
Bit of cotton tied to the counterbalance weight, slung over a bent paperclip secured to the plinth (Blutack or double sided tape), with a washer or two on the end. Bit of experimentation needed to get it right (weights to give correct antiskate + positioning to avoid fouling of tonearm or weight hitting the plinth in the 'off' position), but did the job fine for me in the short term.
Then I got an RB250 as a replacement.
However, since you just got this from a dealer (IIRC), I would take it back!!!
It sounds like mistracking to me (in my very limited experience). I had a Rega R200 (S shaped) and the anti skate is a rubber belt mechanism. The belt goes around the little black knob (underneath). Mine was broken & sounds like it felt like yours....that's the bad news. The worse news is it's not repairable (I just checked with Rega a couple of months ago). There is a screw on the underside of the black knob which let's you remove the knob - you'll then be able to see if the belt is snapped.
The good news is there is a way around it, though it is a bit Heath Robinson.
Bit of cotton tied to the counterbalance weight, slung over a bent paperclip secured to the plinth (Blutack or double sided tape), with a washer or two on the end. Bit of experimentation needed to get it right (weights to give correct antiskate + positioning to avoid fouling of tonearm or weight hitting the plinth in the 'off' position), but did the job fine for me in the short term.
Then I got an RB250 as a replacement.
However, since you just got this from a dealer (IIRC), I would take it back!!!
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
well, it sounds like the needle is not tracking in the bottom of the groove, but to one side hence the distortion through one channel.
this might be anti skate (try minimum or no anti skate to start with, only adding if your arm skips as soon as you put it on the record).
might also be that the cartridge/headshell/tonearm is not set up properly and as such it is mis-tracking in the record groove.
dont dispair, you can fix this type of stuff with patience
this might be anti skate (try minimum or no anti skate to start with, only adding if your arm skips as soon as you put it on the record).
might also be that the cartridge/headshell/tonearm is not set up properly and as such it is mis-tracking in the record groove.
dont dispair, you can fix this type of stuff with patience
if you ballance the tracking weight so the arm sits in mid air , then take the anti skate to zero , float the arm (carefully) over a record and then apply anti skate slowly, the arm should return to its resting position as the anti skate draws it back, if it stays where it is your antiskate dosent work, also if the antiskate is set to zero and the arm is drawn back its wound up to tight and isent working properly .
you said you checked your support rack to make sure its level,did you level the turntable also?
if your antiskate is buggered take it back to the dealer and explain everything without making him think you are responsable for the damage so try not to tamper with it to much, if thers a possable exchange for a rega 3 go for it, if its got an rb300 dont leave the shop without it.
you could look at the stylus to make sure you havent knocked it by accident , make sure its straight both vertically and on the horizontal and defo re'check cart alignment.
good luck.
you said you checked your support rack to make sure its level,did you level the turntable also?
if your antiskate is buggered take it back to the dealer and explain everything without making him think you are responsable for the damage so try not to tamper with it to much, if thers a possable exchange for a rega 3 go for it, if its got an rb300 dont leave the shop without it.
you could look at the stylus to make sure you havent knocked it by accident , make sure its straight both vertically and on the horizontal and defo re'check cart alignment.
good luck.
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SCIDB
Moderator
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Hi Rob,
Here is a run down of what's on it.
http://www.nakedresource.com/hifinewstestrecord_2.shtml
SCIDB
Here is a run down of what's on it.
http://www.nakedresource.com/hifinewstestrecord_2.shtml
SCIDB
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
dunkyboy said:
Hi Dunc,
As you say - progress. Its a good thing. Finding out where the problem lies is half way to resolving it
As you say though - sounds like bad news as it does sound like the antiskate on the arm is buggered.Left channel is the inner groove and right is the outer.
Get thee to the dealer and persuade him to swap it for the P3 if he still has it, or if he has any RB250s or RB300s knocking around get him to do a swap of the arm.
From the evidence of the test record, its almost certainly where the problem is. Rob's method should confirm it. Another method is to find a record with a nice wide run off. With the platter staionary, gently drop the needle into a virgin area of vinyl in the run off - ie between the grooves. Slowly turn the platter by hand. If anti skate is set anywhere near right the stylus should pretty much stay where it is - not going inward and not going outward. If it rapidly shoots inward - its set too low, if it rapidly shoots outward its set too high. If it rapidly shoots inwards or outwards no matter what you do with your antiskate setting, then your antiskate mech is knackered as you suspect.
You'll get there in the end - and it will be worth it
PS. Just an additional thought - one other thing that could bugger your antiskate might be if the tonearm wires are twisted up in any way. Not likely, but a thought all he same.
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Okay, just spoken to the dealer. He's since sold the P3 so that's a no go, but he did offer to get me a new Rega tonearm at trade price, which seems fair enough. He also mentioned the possibility of getting an Incognito-upgraded arm... Is this worthwhile?
Which arm should I go for, RB250 or 300? (All accounts on these two seem to happily contradict themselves about which is better, so I'm a bit confused!) And the Incognito - should I consider that too?
It's worth noting that I really shouldn't spend much money here - if the 300 was significantly better, or if the Incognito is really worth it, then I can stick it on the credit card, but funds are tight and unless it's genuinely worth it I should really go for whatever option is cheapest. So, does a stock 250 sound good, or should I spend the bit extra and go for a 300 or an Incognito..?
He was with a customer so I'm going to ring him back in on hour or so, so quick replies would be reeeeally appreciated!
Dunc
Which arm should I go for, RB250 or 300? (All accounts on these two seem to happily contradict themselves about which is better, so I'm a bit confused!) And the Incognito - should I consider that too?
It's worth noting that I really shouldn't spend much money here - if the 300 was significantly better, or if the Incognito is really worth it, then I can stick it on the credit card, but funds are tight and unless it's genuinely worth it I should really go for whatever option is cheapest. So, does a stock 250 sound good, or should I spend the bit extra and go for a 300 or an Incognito..?
He was with a customer so I'm going to ring him back in on hour or so, so quick replies would be reeeeally appreciated!
Dunc
