What do al-quieda actually want?

You will notice that I described Merlin's previous suggestion racist, not him personally, i.e. the statement “I think we should make a sea out of the whole area, from Pakistan to The Red Sea - overnight.†is IMHO a racist one. I think that is hard to argue against this particular statement being seen in this light. I certainly meant no personal insult or slur, and if my post was seen by anyone in that light then I apologise.

Speaking as a proud whinging liberal I've been whinging about this subject for a very long before it was actually a war. Had the government listened to us whingers we would not be in this situation at all. It sure as hell wasn't the whinging liberals who got the world into this particular mess!

Tony.

 

The Iraqis neither asked for nor wanted our "help". When that "help" turned out to be bombing the crap out of the country and utterly destroying its infrastructure so that most people are far worse off than they were before it's nothing to be grateful for.

The revisionist history that the US and UK went into Iraq to save the people from Saddam is utterly ridiculous. As is becoming clear from the stuff coming out of the 9/11 hearings in the US at the moment Bush and Rumsfeld just wanted to invade Iraq on any pretext because Saddam was pissing them off so they invented all the WMD bullshit too many people fell for it hook line and sinker.

More than oil, Bush and the extreme right-wing people behind him have much wider geopolitical aims in Iraq. They might well have been able to achieve them if they hadn't been so utterly clumsy about the whole thing.

All they've done with this campaign is created the biggest Al-Queda recruitment drive in history.

Your generalisation of Iraqis as a "sad race of people who want everything given" is, I'm afraid to say, a very bigotted view

Well, we should never have gone in there to start with but if we left now it would just be a bloodbath and turn into the next Afghanistan (along with Al-Queda training camps etc). If the US and the UK spent even half of what they spent on the military campaign on reconstructing the country we wouldn't have the problems we do now.

The extent of your xenophobic paranoia is really quite sad.

Michael.

 

Just to clarify Gary, which government are we talking about? The British ? American ? Isreali? How far shall we go back ? The allies of WW1, the Ottomans? What about Muhamed himself ? It is a little know fact to many that the prophet of Islam, was infact an accomplished military leader who spread the new religion through force. Doesn't that worry you at all?

History does tend to show that when left to their own devices, the arab world is incapable of living peacefully with both it's fellow Arabs and it's neighbours, let alone it's hatred of Judeism which dates all the way back to Muhamed himself.

So di you really think that the people of that part of the world are, if left alone, capable of living in peaceful coexistance with the rest of the global community? If so, it would be going against all that history seems to tell us, and the one important thing to do with History is, IMO, to learn from it.

The problems that you describe today, stem from clumsy attempts by many governments over many years to in some way control a problem that they have all felt presented a threat to our way of life if not attended to. The current administrations are IMO no different from those that went before them, and just as clueless. But I feel those that seek apeasement are living in cloud cookoo land.

 

I doubt that. "little known facts" in arguments like these are invariably not facts at all. Still, almost all religions have gone through periods of spreading their religion by force. The Crusades anyone?

I see. And us Europeans have been model citizens in that regard? Remind me again in which continent WWI and WWII started...and also where hatred of the Jews was acted upon with the most horrifc results? Name me a period from 1000AD to the present where Europe (which includes the Balkans) has had more than 50 years of continuous peace. To try and single out Arabs as somehow a barbaric war mongering race is not only ignorant but really is racist I'm afraid. Also, you're confusing Arab with Muslim. One is a race of people, the other is a religion. There are many Arabs who aren't Muslims just as there are many Muslims who aren't Arabs.

As a religion, Islam is remarkably tolerant of other religions, particularly Christianity. Jesus appears in the Koran as a prophet as does the story of his birth (and death).

Michael.

 

Guys,

I'm a little concerned. Where is this thread heading? Some of the views are, well let's just say rather polarised. Is there a point to these discussions?

 

You see Michael

I do find it incredible that stating a point of view that is not concilitory and apologetic is always deemed as racist.

I have copied this from a text that I read some time ago. Now maybe some esteemed historian can chip in and advise me as to whether it contains fact or propaganda - I would be genuinly interested.

Now if I have been misled, then please accept my abject apology. I can only form opinions based on what I see and hear But if I have not been hoodwinked, I would apreciate an apology old chap. I did not state that the Islam is evil, indeed it is the islamists that are the danger, being a minority sect of one large faith. However, I do find the roots of the religion distressing, and less enlightening than say the teachings of Buddha.

Your point about warring nations across the world is a valid one. Indeed surely I have made myself clear that I despair for the behavior of mankind the world over. What I don't see is the reasoning behind the optimism regarding human nature. Sorry Michael, but for me apeasement is not a viable option.

Lastly, I accept that many atrocities have been carried out in the name of many religions. I would point out however, that the Christian prophet (whether you believe in him or not) was not noted in history as a statesman or military planner.

 

Try entering Saudi Arabia with a Christian Bible in your hand luggage and you'll see how tolerant they are.
A large British contractor out there issue Doc Martins safety boots/shoes to all of their field Engineers. Every single pair has had the + cross removed by hand so as not to offend, I shit you not, I know 'cause i was there.
Tolerance they don't know the meaning of the word.

 

There was a BBC documentary about religious tolerance or rather lack of it in Saudi Arabia. The program highlighted how non-Muslims were watched by the locals and even a small gathering was soon broken up.

Anyone found a Church, Temple or any other place of worship (except Mosques) in Saudi Arabia? Don't bother looking, they don't exist.

 

I guess there's much truth in the saying that you should never talk about politics and religion!

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

 

Warning. This is another long Wolfie's rambling. Skip if you never find me coherent.

I have been reading this thread with interest. Perhaps, just to see if it would help me understand the problem we have in our world today. I grow up in Malaysia. From my observation it is one of the better examples of a successful Islamic state. Better then many in the Arab region. The population are a diverse multi-racial society with different values. They are just as many religions too. However, the founding fathers adopted Islam as the state religion but have a vision to up hold tolerance as one of the main principal for harmonious live. It is not easy. Lately there seems to be a real emergent of Islamic fundamentalist movement even in this traditionally tolerant society. Even the moderate Muslim seems to be caught in the middle unable to decide whether they are a good thing or not. To makes matter worst the fundamentalist movement do not seems to be happy talking about religious matter only and seems to be extremely keen in politics. Fortunately the secular ruling government has so far managed to maintain a delicate balance keeping everyone happy.

This is my humble observation. Some people in the West seems to have forgotten (as they themselves have become more secular and less religious) how to deal with people in other countries who are still very keen in upholding to their religions and traditional beliefs without causing offence.

To commend that the origin of Islam has a very barbaric and far from being a peaceful religion in the beginning may have some true in the historical point of view. However, it is not something very useful if you wanted to start a delicate dialogue.

A Malaysian politician once pointed out that the Western press is far from being helpful every time any small minority group decided to cause an atrocious act as yet another stupid Muslim terrorist act. Why label them a Muslim terrorist? Why not just political terrorist? You are bound to alienate a group of people who happens to truly believe and treasure their religion dearly but never even have any thing in common with those extremist terrorists in the first place. If a group of teenagers stole a car for a joy ride do you report it as those White Trash teenagers out to cause us harm yet again? Only a racist non white person would see no harm in reporting the incident this way. The dividing line between a racist or tolerant person is not easy to define. However, it will be very obvious if you could understand the other person point of view. And for that to happen you really have to live together as one, peacefully in the first place.

 

Well said, Wolfgang!

Gross generalisation is never intelligent nor logical.
But it continued to be used by racists, xenophobists and the greedy for misleading the masses and to cover up their hideous agenda.

 

Wolfgang,

I have visited Malaysia and was deeply impressed. I was also recently in a predominently Muslim area of Thailand and experienced nothing but kindness, indeed I am corresponding with a delighful person from Pattani who is a Muslim.

Both she and I were however horrified that the Pattani area of Thailand is currently under martial law following numerous killings of junior Buddhist monks (they are typically penniless and 12 to 14 years old for heaven's sake) by gangs of radical muslim youths armed with machetes.

WHY WHY WHY

 

Yawn . Once again you (and others) are tarring the whole of Islam with the brush of the extremist behaviour of a few fundamentalists. It's like making the KKK representative of Christianity at large.

I've lived in two Islamic countries (Turkey and Iran) so I do have more than a passing understanding of Islam and muslims. They are as tolerant, kind and peace loving as any other religion you care to name.

Merlin, you seemed to be, in essence, saying that Arabs (and/or Muslims you seem to have them confused) are an aggressive and warring race - that is by definition a racist remark. If that's not what you meant to say or imply then I apologize.

I don't know which anti-Islam site you found your quote from but the following bit:

...is utter rubbish anti-Islamic propaganda written by someone who clearly has no understanding whatsoever of the Koran . The constant misinterpretation of the term "Jihad" by Westerners as necessarily a violent "holy war" has done Islam a huge disservice.

Michael.

 

Did anyone know that despite the demonisation of Islam, for many number of years, it has been the fastest growing religion in the world?!

Many of the converts come from Europe and US.

 

This in response to posts containing the following...

and.....

So can I have an apology

What I have not had is a response to the two questions I have raised.

1. Was my post factually correct ? (in which case, does stating historic facts now constitute racism and if so, does any criticism of the activities of the British, Portuguese and Spanish empires also constitute a racial slur?)

2. Why butcher 14 year old Buddhists in the name of faith ?

Michael,

If the subject of this post had been the human rights behavior of the United States and Western powers my comments would have been equally vitriolic, hopefully backed up by factual evidence. Would this also be racist or would you agree with me that the behavior described was unacceptable ? If as I suspect, your views would have been along similar lines to those posted in this thread concerning Islamists, then it is you who is the racist not I.

 

hmm from a purely statistical point I would dispute that, Job, AFAIK, in Africa, Christianity is multiplying like nothing you know, 10, 000s of converts daily.

In the 60/70s it was the cold war, now its the war on terror, no doubt the american govt. are warmongeres, again you can't tar the decent american people with the same brush, and that's what saddens me about some of these backward souls, that they think an american is american policy, or Israelis are the hard line govt.
Life is a massive continuous spectrum from one end to t'other with myriads of tiny points in between.

Its odd, again the rotten media, if there is a demonisation of Islam, look at the stories they report, stopping church bells ringing, stopping sculptures of pigs in parks.

Makes you wonder if they will stop Easter, Xmas, radio broadcasts of Christian music.

But Britain on the whole is MASSIVELY tolerant, we live compartively in peace.

And yes I will come out and make what may be constured as a racist comment, but its not, its an attack on the crass policital correctness in this god forsaken country.

There was an advert by ACAS in the national paper, 2 in fact, one was a building site, there were 2 black men, a women, an asian and 2 white people.

Now are you telling me its representative of a BUILING SITE?? to have one woman, two black people, and 1 asian as labourers for every 2 white men....absolute rubbish.

I have nothing against coloured people, I have everything against BULL in the media.

Its not us who need to be tolerant, its other countries, there was an incident about the kidnap of a white boy in Glasgow by 6 asians, the police were very careful not to call it racist.
If it was the other way around, the first thing in the media you would here is 'racist' attack. I wish for balance, that is all my motivation.

You try getting away with what other people get away with here in their country, yes would they be as tolerant as we are? Not at all. I have respect when I go to a foreign country for others ways.
the fact that others when they come here treat our ways with contempt is disrespectful in the least. the abuses of the visa system. I know of people who have not renewed visa, there must be 1000s and 1000s of them across the country, and health suffers, housing goes up, queus in the shops, cars on the road.

I am peaceful, a nice person in life, abhor violence, and I woudln't fight and kill some poor German I had nothing against or personally dint' know just to keep the queen in her mansion.

And yes of course, not all muslims are terrorists, I find them extremely polite, I am not anti foreigner, on the contrary, I am anti-rudeness wherever it occurs, I find MANY foreign people, muslims inc. far more preferable and polite and decent people than a lot of white people can ever dream of being.

My point are said in context, so please do not misinterpret them as is so easy to do in a BB. This is part of the problem.

 

Michael,

I don't think anyone here believes that all Muslims are terrorists. As is typical in every race/religion, the vast majority of people in the Islamic world are very friendly. However, it seems it's impossible to criticise any wrong doings in an Islamic country without someone pointing out that it's anti-Islamic. I agree with your comments about Turkish and Iranian people. I had the pleasure of knowing fellow students from these countries (and Malyasia in fact) when I was at University and always had a lot of time for them.

We all know that in Afghanistan there were attrocities committed against Muslim and non-Mulim people by the Telebans, so why weren't there protests against them from other Islamic countries? Similarly we all know of human rights abuse in Saudi Arabia. Why can't we protest at that abuse without being branded anti Islamic or racist? Surely any such abuse regardless of race/religion should be treated equally, we wouldn't think twice about criticising any western country that let this sort of abuse go on. I'd like a balanced approach, I think sometimes PC does more to alienate people than harmonise (?) them.

 

Double big Yawn no I'm not smart arse, get your facts right ! Exactly where in my post did i say that. And where did the 'once again' come from ?

I was pointing out that there is a policy at ALL Saudi border controls to check ALL of the luggage of ALL passengers passing through,(which is why it takes upto 3 hours to clear one full 777) for any of the many banned items, one of which was anything to do with propagating or promotion of alternative religions in the, Birthplace of Islam. Although i have no interest in religion myself, i do know personal friends of mine who where , stopped , detained and third degree'd at length as to why they had such material on their person. After a while they where released after having their goods confiscated and thrown into a bin.

I lived in Saudi for nearly four years and made very many trips through their border controls. Anybody can get a Toursit visa to Turkey or Iran, try getting a tourist visa for a Holiday in Saudi, ( you won't get one as they don't exist !).
I had a great many Muslim freinds and aquaintances whilst living there, some of my young Trainee apprentices even did me the honour of inviting me back to their homes to meet with their families. I am not a rascist and have no problems with decent law abiding people ( like me ) who just go about their business and don't **** with other peoples lives.

One of the things that soon became clear after I had been brought into trusted confidence with some of my Saudi work collegues was the fact that an awful lot of them hated the Ruling classes much more than their western work mates . These comments where made in very hushed tones. Life in a police state has to be quiet.

After retuning from Saudi i worked as a self employed sub contractor for a few months. Whilst working at Stanstead Airport I got myself digs with a nice Egyptian ( Muslim ) family in their family home. The deal was i would just stay for a few days to see how we got on together, ( personality/ lifestyle clashes, etc) i ended up staying with them for 4 1/2 months ! My wife and the landlady having many long friendly conversations over the phone despite never meeting in person. Without blowing my own trumpet too much, the landlady recognised my strong family values and willingness to travel anywhere to support my family , with no pissing about along the way.

You assume too much sir !

 

FWIW, Saudi is a Wahhabist state, a brand of rather unpleasant anti-Shia evangelism shared by al Qaeda, but by no means the only variety of Islam.

Here's some reasonably well-informed background:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

There isn't one kind of Islam, just as there isn't one kind of Christianity or Judaism. It's important to remember this in these discussions, the Islamic world has its own internal contradictions, one of the larger of which is that a deeply reactionary state like Saudi Arabia is considered by the West to be an ally.

Me, I'm with the Sufis, an eminently coherent and non-fundamentalist wing of Islam. Sufism has a thing or two to teach about tolerance.

Edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

-- Ian

 

A bit unfortunate then, that Saudi is of course where Mecca is situated, and also Al-Q.
Michael, Turkey is not a muslim country, it's seccular?