active vibration management

[Stereo Mic]

try running a 1kw p.a. cab 5 inches away from your deck and you will soon see why it needs to be on a stiff , light low q , semi resonant structure.

Interesting, although I don't tend to do that at home nor I suspect do most of us. Is this another case of quoting an extreme to prove a point that has little relevence in domestic hifi?

I have admit, I don't understand the bit about moving mass. Could you put it in another way for an idiot like me?

 

[Stereo Mic]

Daryl - you make a number of good points. The best sub-chassis is no sub-chassis.

Again, I will ask you to explain why?

Additionally, doesn't the subchassis support the platter, bearing and arm assembly? In which case, if you mount a solid plinth deck on a suspension system, isn't the whole deck becoming a subchassis(With the disadvantage of having the motor coupled to it)?

 

[anon_bb]

Only if it is suspended.

No, because the motor and cartridge share the same frame of reference, unlike a suspended deck. With a modern dc motor in a decoupled housing on a seperate pod there is no issue with acoustic coupling from the motor. The noise floor of the vinyl itself is all you can hear.

Think about what daryl has said. A turntable is a measurement device - do you really think the motor and the measurement point being able to move in relation to each other is a good idea? Have you ever heard a direct drive turntable? If so what did you notice about the sound? Also suspension itself while it is a form of isolation is also a form of coupling... surely better to remove these two issues and solve the problem much more effectively using external isolation?

 

[Stereo Mic]

Only if it is suspended.

Air is a suspension medium is it not?

With a modern dc motor in a decoupled housing on a seperate pod there is no issue with acoustic coupling from the motor. The noise floor of the vinyl itself is all you can hear.

Not in my experience. Both the Vpi and Verdier benefit from having the motor assembly located on a seperate isolation platform. You might want to experiment there with the BL - I suspect you will be as surprised as I was.

No, because the motor and cartridge share the same frame of reference

Ah, speed stability vs motor vibration? I don't notice speed irregularities when listening to SME's, Vpi's or even Linns. Just as you probably don't notice the motor noise on you BL.

 

[anon_bb]

The key issue is the relation of the drive system to the measurement point. Is it fixed or can it vary? The answer differs for suspended subchassis v non-suspended. The non-suspended answer doesnt change if you mount the whole thing on external isolation.

I have turned the volume up to full - I can hear no motor noise.

I dont know the vpi and the verdier so I cant comment.

Motor noise is easy to check, when I said I turned the volume right up I used an unmodulated track on a test record not music. If motor noise existed it would be buried in the music otherwise.

I am sure you wouldnt notice anything with respect to the sme linn vpi etc but it still exists. It affects the ability of the measurement system in ways that are less obvious than simple pitch stability. Which is why the BL sounds much more dynamic, detailed and has a killer bass.

 

[SteveC]

Haddock is better than Skate.

Hadcock is better with anti-skate

 

[Stereo Mic]

The key issue is the relation of the drive system to the measurement point.

Only if you own a solid plinth deck ;-). And only if you consider minor speed irregulaities to be potentially calamitous and of great concern than motor noise breakthrough and poor record pressing.

 

[lordsummit]

If you want to post a link to a discussion elsewhere that's not a problem. It's bringing in arguments from other forums thatwe don't allow.

 

[anon_bb]

Unfortunately this thread was full of certain peoples nonsense hence I hesitated to put a link, even though I restricted myself to the technical discussion - are you still happy for me to post the link? I am worried it might start a problem for which I will get the blame...

SM motor noise breakthrough isnt a problem. No the relation is important for suspended decks too! ANY speed irregularity is a problem - as is any resonance given the scale of features that a stylus is trying to read. Proper external isolation is way more effective than suspension - else SEMS would be suspended!

 

[Stereo Mic]

Why do you have to have digs at Bub at every opportunity?

Why not just cut and paste rather than trying to wind up other members?

Speed irregularity is no more of an issue than motor vibration - we both claim we cannot hear it.

 

[anon_bb]

In an unmodulated test track you cant hear it. Therefore it isnt a problem. This could be measured. I have also used a wow and flutter meter on the brinkmann and the results were at the limits of the measurement ability of the meter - and way lower than any suspended deck.

I am not having a dig I am just saying why I hesitated to post the link and why I want the mod to say its ok. Its a very long thread for a start I am not going to cut and paste it all out. I have removed the specific reference from my reason to avoid hassle. Please amend your post to do so also.

 

[Stereo Mic]

Wow and flutter is considered inaudible on just about all high end decks in most people's opinion. I cannot see a difference between inaudible and unmeasureable given the purpose of the instrument on question. Can you?

Try seperate isolation then come back to us with your findings. I would be intersted to hear your opinions to see if they correlate with mine and my friends'

 

[anon_bb]

Opinion. Well many that like direct drive decks would disagree with you in terms of bass and dynamics.

If I cant hear motor noise with the volume at max on an unmodulated test groove then there is no point. If you looked at the motor pod you would see why ;-). The brinkmann prob differs from those other decks. His attention to detail is to be admired.

 

[wadia-miester]

I find them average though, as do I the Brinkmann after finally hearing one this week.
This is the sound you've been on about Nick, I was expecting 'interesting things'
Not bad, but not tear me in the seat stuff. (reminds of James promises before I visited nearly 3 years ago now )
Oh well you live and learn. I did think you knew your stuff.
It wasn't bad, but not the alleged class leading sound you've been telling us Nick.
Perhaps our reference points are at different ploaces on the ladder so to speak.
Stereo Mic, how much of an influence would you suggest that suspension plays in a TT's perfermance?.
Could you also recommend some quality decks based on your obvious experinace, and how you feel each one brings its respective sound to the party.
Wm

 

[anon_bb]

Hey wadia you told me you heard one before! You are being very naughty! Which decks meet your standard then?

Did you hear it on the required isolation? If not it will indeed sound average. Perhaps some other fault in the system?

 

[Stereo Mic]

The brinkmann prob differs from those other decks. His attention to detail is to be admired.

Why? Is the motor isolated inside the pod?

WM, the best decks I have heard are the SME 30 and the Blue Pearl. The Vpi HRX is also outstanding in some ways but I found it lacking in others/

I cannot comment on the BL as I only have 3rd party opinions at the moment. If it is anything like the Simon Yorke however, it will have wonderful bass and dynamics, but be seriously lacking in other areas such as soundstage layering and image depth in comparison with the references mentioned above. Of course this could be addressed by providing proper support for the Yorke, but at a cost that makes it very poor value for money compared with the Vpi and SME.

 

[anon_bb]

Yes.

The yorke with a vibraplane is still cheaper than the sme30 - perhaps 25%? The BL has no problems with imaging that I can discern. And if you use an sem bench the cost of ownership of a non-suspended deckis even lower.

I am off now - see you much later!

 

[wadia-miester]

I can assure you there is NO fault in the particular system I listen to the 'Brinky-Winky' in.

 

[wadia-miester]

Thank you Stereo Mic good to see a vinyl guy being impartial. Thanks

 

[Stereo Mic]

Yes.

The yorke with a vibraplane is still cheaper than the sme30 - perhaps 25%?

Not so AFAIK. The SME is £13K. The Yorke/Vibraplane combo around £12K. So whilst ever so slightly less expensive, IME the Yorke should not even be classified alongside the SME. The Model 30/2 is a considerable step up from the likes of the S7 in all respects (even the bottom end).

With due respect to what I suspect is an excellent system in many ways, I imagine that if you were to compare tt's in a more revealing system, one geared more towards image cohesiveness, you would indeed notice the differences.

It was these failings that caused my good friend to choose the SME over the Brinkmann (and that was in comparison with their flagship model - the Balance)

WM, I can afford to be unbiased. I neither own, nor sell any of the mentioned TT's. I do have extensive experience of them over a long period however, enough I feel to make a reasonably intelligent summation.