wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
I'm surprised Ian, that BBV hasn't tried fully active computer control suspension yet.
He just so yesterday
He just so yesterday
active vibration management
- Thread starter anon_bb
- Start date
Hi WM,
Well active suspensions had many problems on race cars due to their extra mass and power requirements. On raod cars you also had the extra expense, reliability and the users not percieving that great an advantage.
For Hi-Fi equipment the above issues shouldn't be a problem but noise and bandwidth are big issues to resolve, especially as they neeed to be matched to the TT combination in use.
Ian
Well active suspensions had many problems on race cars due to their extra mass and power requirements. On raod cars you also had the extra expense, reliability and the users not percieving that great an advantage.
For Hi-Fi equipment the above issues shouldn't be a problem but noise and bandwidth are big issues to resolve, especially as they neeed to be matched to the TT combination in use.
Ian
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Thanks Ian, we used our active suspensions on the anything goes Class 'a' stuff, tricky to impliment and difficult to programme, and the soloniods were a pain too, however once running properly its pretty sweet.
One of the guys that used to work at Bennetton runs some on his hillclimb pug still I believe. course record holder too.
One of the guys that used to work at Bennetton runs some on his hillclimb pug still I believe. course record holder too.
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Oh goody you can compare notes with our boy, he's rather good
Hi WM,
"we used our active suspensions on the anything goes Class 'a' stuff"
Fully active? Good to hear from someone who does know about this technology.
What was your involvement in the technology?
Would the guy from Benetton be from the electronics department there, can't remember his name right now?
We have an extreme hill climber here who would know this guy.
Best regards,
Ian
"we used our active suspensions on the anything goes Class 'a' stuff"
Fully active? Good to hear from someone who does know about this technology.
What was your involvement in the technology?
Would the guy from Benetton be from the electronics department there, can't remember his name right now?
We have an extreme hill climber here who would know this guy.
Best regards,
Ian
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2005
- Messages
- 2,309
- Reaction score
- 0
brizonbiovizier said:
Nick ,if the support is an integral part, then why not supply it in the retail pric? That's what I don't like. Take the BL. You buy the deck. Then you need their arm really. then their cartridge. Oh and don't forget the optional tube PSU. Then the support. It's an upgrade/monopoly situation that reminds me of Linn and Naim to an extent. Great if you like that sort of thing. I just want a simple solution that works! Do you have the tube PSU?
analoguekid
Planet Rush
Stereo Mic said:
That was my point too mic, seems us audiophools have got used to putting up with this nonsense, and buying into the ethos, we listen to the dealers and manufacturers, who afterall are there to SELL a product, they should have confidence in their product to allow it to work well when just plonked in your system, shouldn't be any need for all this farting around, I bet it wouldn't sound any different on an ikea table.
Because its not theirs and they want you to have a choice, i.e. spend a couple of hundred for a tss or a couple of thousand for a vibraplane. Its up to you, but you do need isolation due to the design.
Also you dont have to use their arm and cartridge and I am sure many dont - though they are both very good. My friend uses a breuer arm with his yorke.
You cant buy the tube psu anymore in the uk - also it doesnt sound better it sounds different so is a choice really at purchase time.
There is no upgrade / monopoly thing - they only make one arm and cartridge. Even with the support its still cheaper than an sme30. And with the appropriate support it sounds better IMHO.
It isnt nonsense if it is part of the way the deck is meant to operate. Its nothing to do with confidnece in the product or just plonking it in to the system. Would you expect an SEM to work without the appropriate isolation? With that logic well i want a deck where you can just install the arm and cartridge any old how and it works
perfectly regardless of alignment. Sorry but decks just dont work that way.
I can assure it does sound different and can demonstrate it very easily just by letting the air out...
Suspended decks might sound fine on ikea but non-suspended are not going to do that. But with the proper external isolation you can get all the benifits of suspension (and more) with none of the disadvantages.
Also you dont have to use their arm and cartridge and I am sure many dont - though they are both very good. My friend uses a breuer arm with his yorke.
You cant buy the tube psu anymore in the uk - also it doesnt sound better it sounds different so is a choice really at purchase time.
There is no upgrade / monopoly thing - they only make one arm and cartridge. Even with the support its still cheaper than an sme30. And with the appropriate support it sounds better IMHO.
It isnt nonsense if it is part of the way the deck is meant to operate. Its nothing to do with confidnece in the product or just plonking it in to the system. Would you expect an SEM to work without the appropriate isolation? With that logic well i want a deck where you can just install the arm and cartridge any old how and it works
perfectly regardless of alignment. Sorry but decks just dont work that way.
I can assure it does sound different and can demonstrate it very easily just by letting the air out...
Suspended decks might sound fine on ikea but non-suspended are not going to do that. But with the proper external isolation you can get all the benifits of suspension (and more) with none of the disadvantages.
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2005
- Messages
- 2,309
- Reaction score
- 0
What are the disadvantages of suspended designs if I could ask?
That's a genuine question. As I say, all the best decks I have heard are suspended designs but I am a listener not a scientist.
That's a genuine question. As I say, all the best decks I have heard are suspended designs but I am a listener not a scientist.
analoguekid
Planet Rush
brizonbiovizier said:
Thats all well and good, but why design a deck in the first place thats so susceptible to what it's placed on, if the support is so important, then why not design one to give consistent results wherever it's placed, If I was a turntable manufacturer I'd want it sounding optimally for every customer, like the big $50k decks that have their own supports, you don't then need some fancy isoplat you just stick it on whatever floor you have, selling a deck thats so dependant on where it sits (and not providing a finished article) is a compromise and a copout, in my opinion you understand (especially at that price)
SM - I have already posted on this topic on another forum - if you PM me I will give you details.
Ak - it isnt "susceptible" - its specifically designed to use external isolation to avoid the problems associated with suspended decks. Thats like saying a cartridge is susceptible to requiring a tonearm. Brinkmann is a small manufacturer and its a pretty speciliast piece of equipment so why should he make one when you can buy one for much less money than he would be able to make it for (economies of scale for sem platform manufacturers). Sure rockport designed their own but then the deck is over 5 times as much and at that price you can incorporate it directly - thought I bet it still isnt as good as an sem bench and that the BL might well sound better than the rock port. Designing the deck to give consistant results regardless of siting i.e. suspension, means that you are fundamentally limiting the task for which the deck is designed - measurement of the groove. By avoiding this compromise and relying on external isolation then there is no such limit. It can be made to sound optimal for every customer - they can choose either an hrs, tss or somehting like a vibraplane / sem bench. Problem sorted. No hassle. It sounds great on my tss however maybe an active solution would sound even better. There is no compromise - it is actually seeking to avoid compromise. It just happens that it offends some peoples sense of whats right ;-). Many dealers are happy to provide a complete solution for either yorke / BL either using vibraplane, hrs etc etc. Sure there are easier solutions but I am just concerned with getting the best performance I can. A suitably isolated BL gives that and I have listened to as many alternatives as I could find. And the next best deck I have heard is a suitably isolated SY S7 - which sounds better than the s8, which is just an s7 with suspension added, even with both of them sited on a slate plinth. Which provides strong evidence for my point. Phew!
Even brinkmann wants to provide the best solution at the best cost to some degree - which is his deck approach plus isolation. Not everyone will want this approach however and for people that want a siting independent solution then go for avid, sme etc. If you want more "hassle" (and I do) go for a BL or SY. Then diy all your kit. You pays your money etc... I prefer to take the path less travelled. Call it obsession if you like.
Ak - it isnt "susceptible" - its specifically designed to use external isolation to avoid the problems associated with suspended decks. Thats like saying a cartridge is susceptible to requiring a tonearm. Brinkmann is a small manufacturer and its a pretty speciliast piece of equipment so why should he make one when you can buy one for much less money than he would be able to make it for (economies of scale for sem platform manufacturers). Sure rockport designed their own but then the deck is over 5 times as much and at that price you can incorporate it directly - thought I bet it still isnt as good as an sem bench and that the BL might well sound better than the rock port. Designing the deck to give consistant results regardless of siting i.e. suspension, means that you are fundamentally limiting the task for which the deck is designed - measurement of the groove. By avoiding this compromise and relying on external isolation then there is no such limit. It can be made to sound optimal for every customer - they can choose either an hrs, tss or somehting like a vibraplane / sem bench. Problem sorted. No hassle. It sounds great on my tss however maybe an active solution would sound even better. There is no compromise - it is actually seeking to avoid compromise. It just happens that it offends some peoples sense of whats right ;-). Many dealers are happy to provide a complete solution for either yorke / BL either using vibraplane, hrs etc etc. Sure there are easier solutions but I am just concerned with getting the best performance I can. A suitably isolated BL gives that and I have listened to as many alternatives as I could find. And the next best deck I have heard is a suitably isolated SY S7 - which sounds better than the s8, which is just an s7 with suspension added, even with both of them sited on a slate plinth. Which provides strong evidence for my point. Phew!
Even brinkmann wants to provide the best solution at the best cost to some degree - which is his deck approach plus isolation. Not everyone will want this approach however and for people that want a siting independent solution then go for avid, sme etc. If you want more "hassle" (and I do) go for a BL or SY. Then diy all your kit. You pays your money etc... I prefer to take the path less travelled. Call it obsession if you like.
analoguekid
Planet Rush
be a compromised poor sounding bouncer for me then, it's academic anyway, I have just bought an old thorens to replace my michell, and have new speakers coming soon, so no fancy deks for me, i'll just have to put up with my poor sounding CD and cheap TT
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Ian Wright said:
Ian,
My involvement was my own race team. plus a few years spent on aircraft hydraulics/fuel system (Dowty's/Smiths)
Yes it was fully active, however we spent too long on its application and I negected the motor, still we ran em close LOL
The chap is from Gotherington I believe (a husband and wife team?) Yes I think so Ian.
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2005
- Messages
- 2,309
- Reaction score
- 0
brizonbiovizier said:
As you are making the claims on this forum, maybe you could answer the question publicly so that members over here can debate the merits of your argument?
If active vibration is tackled correctly the isolation platform will be made specifically for the device being placed upon it. We came across a US company called SRA (Silent Running Audio), who build what we thought was one of the best isolation systems in the marketplace.
Here is their web site, I would suggest anyone ineterested in this subject to check it out (especially sections on why they are called Silent Running per the link to nuclear submarines):
http://www.silentrunningaudio.com/home.htm
Kevin at SRA is also a great guy to deal with too.
Here is their web site, I would suggest anyone ineterested in this subject to check it out (especially sections on why they are called Silent Running per the link to nuclear submarines):
http://www.silentrunningaudio.com/home.htm
Kevin at SRA is also a great guy to deal with too.
brizon,
Why should we have to search another forum for your answer to the above, very valid, question?
If you make an assertion here (about suspended vs non-suspended decks or anything else for that matter) then you should be prepared to back it up.
Jon
Stereo Mic said:
Why should we have to search another forum for your answer to the above, very valid, question?
If you make an assertion here (about suspended vs non-suspended decks or anything else for that matter) then you should be prepared to back it up.
Jon
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2003
- Messages
- 217
- Reaction score
- 0
hold your
turntable in your hands while playing a piece of piano music so that your deck is not on a stiff support.
then workout why it wows.
this goes for any deck . direct drive or belt. suspended or non suspended.
now try to workout why it does this.
now think about the physical mass properties of your deck in regards to the stylus accelerations and moving mass of the cartridge.
the sub chassis of the deck has more moving mass at very low freqs than the excursion of the stylus in regards its coils'/magnets.
this can only mean one thing and is the most misjudged part of turntables ever.
try running a 1kw p.a. cab 5 inches away from your deck and you will soon see why it needs to be on a stiff , light low q , semi resonant structure. at least this way energy in the system can dissapate fast and clean.
forget really heavy structures as they can never be heavy enough.
i tried a microscope base that was about £7500 and the deck used to wow when a car went past as the table set the deck going as the deck could never be in one place.
this just confused the stylus in the groove and made the drive system servos wow or the belt to wow in terms of the excursions of the bigger mass ( the deck itself ).
i now use a turntable that has virtually no mass or resonance in its sub chassis because it does not have one apart from a triangle of thick un resonant acrylic.
i have tried loads of solid !!!! bases and they all sound fairly similar except some reflect more energy back into the deck than others. the best one i have found is an 1 1/2 inch thich bit of acrylic straight onto the wall bracket as it just seems inert in terms of wide or narrow resonance so the stylus does not see as many reflections / deflections from it's mounting.
this means the deck can just get on with what its supposed to be doing.
going round at the right speed with little accoustic interfearance.
turntable in your hands while playing a piece of piano music so that your deck is not on a stiff support.
then workout why it wows.
this goes for any deck . direct drive or belt. suspended or non suspended.
now try to workout why it does this.
now think about the physical mass properties of your deck in regards to the stylus accelerations and moving mass of the cartridge.
the sub chassis of the deck has more moving mass at very low freqs than the excursion of the stylus in regards its coils'/magnets.
this can only mean one thing and is the most misjudged part of turntables ever.
try running a 1kw p.a. cab 5 inches away from your deck and you will soon see why it needs to be on a stiff , light low q , semi resonant structure. at least this way energy in the system can dissapate fast and clean.
forget really heavy structures as they can never be heavy enough.
i tried a microscope base that was about £7500 and the deck used to wow when a car went past as the table set the deck going as the deck could never be in one place.
this just confused the stylus in the groove and made the drive system servos wow or the belt to wow in terms of the excursions of the bigger mass ( the deck itself ).
i now use a turntable that has virtually no mass or resonance in its sub chassis because it does not have one apart from a triangle of thick un resonant acrylic.
i have tried loads of solid !!!! bases and they all sound fairly similar except some reflect more energy back into the deck than others. the best one i have found is an 1 1/2 inch thich bit of acrylic straight onto the wall bracket as it just seems inert in terms of wide or narrow resonance so the stylus does not see as many reflections / deflections from it's mounting.
this means the deck can just get on with what its supposed to be doing.
going round at the right speed with little accoustic interfearance.
I have written at great length on this topic of suspended v non-suspended on another forum so there is no need to repeat it. I would have just pasted the link normally but as there is a prohibition on dragging in other forums I hesitated to do so. If the mods say it is ok I will put the link. Otherwise you will have to pm me.
Daryl - you make a number of good points. The best sub-chassis is no sub-chassis.
Daryl - you make a number of good points. The best sub-chassis is no sub-chassis.
