An open post to the forum's Naim representatives

Marco

Hmmm.....

"Sure, but that's insular thinking is it not? If you do that, how will you ever know if you're missing out on something better? You say you like the best, but you can't say what's best if you don't know what else is out there." Marco

IMO what you say is right and wrong.

If you are happy with what you have and then hear something better, you then have a problem, ie: shit now I've got to find the cash for a new peice of kit and then your not happy with what you have.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.....................

Glad you're enjoying your new amp though

Best regards

Barnie.
http://barnies-place.co.uk/lounge/index.php?

 

I agree, Barnie, but since Mick has already said he's thinking about changing his 135s for a 300, I think he owes it to himself to audition the alternatives and ensure he makes the right choice rather than having to rectify an expensive mistake afterwards...

Regards,
Marco.

 

Yes point taken

Barnie
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

 

Yup, he should listen to the NAP500 as well

 

And again

Cheers

Barnie
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

 

Sure, Tom, then once he's heard the EA-2, he can nominate what charity gets the change that's left over

Marco.

P.S Are you in Crieff yet?

 

Next Friday

 

Hope everything goes well with the move.

Marco.

 

Thank you. So do I

 

I have heard all the contenders for Mick's new power amp + the NAP 500 and the Stealth monoblocks.

The best of the lot was the Stealth monoblocks by far. A NAP 500 just doesn't come close for sheer effortless/seamless musicality, clout and cavernous soundstaging. They give you a feeling of :notworthy :mrtoy:

Next would be the 500, and Stealth stereo - a dead ringer for the new ECS in all but casing I do believe. The two come very close and I'd need to hear them in a head-to-head to be sure which I prefered.

NAP 300 versus the ECS? It's a no-brainer.

The Stealths are highly synergistic with Briks as well as with Naim preamps. Briks really do come into their own when fed the serious power that Naim amps lack in comparison.

Mick,

A CDS3/552/ECS EA-2 (or even EA-1s ) on Hutter/Briks on Mana would give me the serious green eye. It would certainly be a contender for the :mrtoy: Best System gong!

BTW, the EA-1s are about a grand and a bit more than the NAP300 and only just over half the price of a NAP 500 IIRC/AFAIK

 

Suppose it depends what you want from music, fidelity or shear power.

 

Again, to be absolutely accurate, could we insert the word "loud" after "going". For me, it seems strange to have £25K worth of electronics powering some old Briks, surely a look at something a little better would be in order?

 

Merlin

A lot of us like Briks. It is all down to personal preference.

They lack the absolute top end clarity and detail of newer models but they communicate music like nothing else.

Regards

Mick

 

Steven

Thanks for the posting.

Any chance of a bit more detail.

You said that you have heard several power amps. Were they all in the same system or in different systems. Also were they all driven by the same pre amp.

Many thanks

Mick

 

I have read Merlin's post and it doesn't to my eyes look like an axe to grind, more a genuine enquiry by a honest person.

What worries me about Naim is that they say there is an upgrade route, that the next model will sound SOOO much better than the one before it.

I can't understand this viewpoint with the amps, as they are all the same, its just the transformer that is bigger.

I have a feeling they see their quasi-complementary output stage as absolutely critical to their sound, and the only way to get ;more power was to bridge the thing, which was what they did to get more power, thus preserving the very thing responsible for the sound?.

I have to say, I do like the naim sound, its alive, ebbing, flowing, but I believe it comes from the simplicity of the design. DNM amps are very simple, too.

And again the prices, they are indeed taking the Michael, sorry Michael, with their new prices, they are absurb, its sheer greed no other word for it.

They made their name with the Linn fraternity in the 80s, as like with all things, it was easier and simpler then....now its VERY hard, there are so many people trying to get your attention, one voice gets lost easily.

However good Naim is, for the price you pay, I do well to remind myself one thing, I did a listening test with a few amps, Class A, studio, Naim and one or two others, the Naim came to my ears top, true it didn't sound nearly as good without a Naim Pre which leads me to suspect the pre has a massive factor, but they were all comfortably beaten by a 12 watt valve amp I paid about £250 for.
And if you keep your eyes out, for maybe £3.5k, you could buy ATc scm100s, with a 12 inch woofer, that 4" dome mid, and 350 watts of class A mosfet power amps, together with active crossovers, that's what 1/2 the price of a secondhand NAP500?
value?

 

Mick,

I heard the Stealth monos on the end of a heavily modified 62 and with Biks. It was at Pog's place so there was a lot of Mana.

I heard the Stereo Stealth at JW's. He uses a 52 and Briks.

I have heard the NAP 500 at several shows - some sounded good, others not so good, and also at the Stafford Naim Musical Evening at the Moathouse, Acton Trussel back in November 2002 where I got to hear the 300 and 500 in direct comparison with a 252 and a 552.

TBH, I think you need at least a 500 (or its ilk) to really benefit from the transparency of a 552.

I didn't hear much improvement when the 552 was slid into place over the 252 with the 300. I did when they used the 500 and swapped the 52 for a 552 though at an earlier demo. Both demos were private, and Naim had gone to a lot of trouble to pick a decent room and set things up optimally.

Mick, you have a pm.

 

Thanks for some of the comments regarding the "motive" behind this thread. I hope it's become clear that it is an honest question.

I recall Mick saying somewhere that I did not have the experience. Maybe true when it comes to the Naim phenomenon, but I just want to understand it!

I have come to understand most other facets of this hobby. Over the past twenty years I have dabbled with most of the options out there, and can see each has a certain attraction. I've owned panels, mini monitors, big multidriver behemoths. I've owned TT's and top end CD, SACD, multichannel extravagences and top headphones. I've tried valve, solid state, digital.

I have owned an LP12, set up by JMH and tweaked, I've had mana, Townsend, cables ,and more mains tweaks than you can name. With everything I've tried, I could see the attraction, particularly on a sound/cost basis. Some were more to my liking than others, but that's to be expected given personal preference.

But I just don't get the UK's fascination with Naim! All I ever hear is "communication" and "music" but that's far too generic. Music can be found in many different combinations of equipment. Communication? Listen to Sinatra on large panels driven by high powered valves. Fireworks? try Berlioz on Classe/ Dynaudio Masters. Presence? listen to a low powered SET driving Klipsch corner Horns! Boogy and party? LP12 (Valhalla pre cirkus)

This afternoon I've been listening to vinyl on a 13W SET (Art Audio Diavlo). Vocals to die for, seamless, grainless, in a word "sexy".

What I find sad is that most comparisons of Naim gear seem to be with other Naim gea. It just seems such a closed world which is odd as it only seems to be the case in the UK. Now if a company such as Audio Reseach can be loved across the globe, that suggests to me that there is kit out there that we all like, so tastes vary less globaly than might be thought.

Great British stalwarts such as Harbeth, Proac, Tannoy and EAR have a huge following around the world. So why not Naim? What are we all missing?

Like I said, this isn't a bash, more an attempt to understand. I can understand and appreciate most kit I hear (and not just esoteric, Rotel IMHO make some of the most underrated power amps on the planet). It's just Naim seems so ordinary to me. Some will say I am not a music lover, that I like kit for kit's sake. But that's wrong, I love my music as much as anyone, it's just that hifi is a hobby to me and, as with any hobby I seek understanding and knowledge. One day I will have had enough and settle down with one system to rule them all! But at he moment, I cannot see it having anything from Salibury in it.

Cheers

Michael

 

Merlin

We all like different sounds but I think Naim did the wise thing in the eighties with the Naim-Linn axis. That was a very wise move which put Naim on the map.

Also Naim have a well thought out upgrade trail which makes life very easy.

The cable / interconnects is also well thought out. Naimees do not have to agonise over this little issue.

There is also the advantage of longevity and servicing older kit, again this is a confidence booster for customers.

The relatively high resale value means that newbies can come in at the bottom end and progress up rather cheaply. If you buy and sell at the same price, Naim becomes free hifi.

I buy it because I like the sound but all the reasons quoted above are a bloody good perk.

Regards

Mick

 

Mick,

All the above reasons are excellent, but of little consolation if Hugh Masakela's Train doesn't cause me to burst into tears as it would on an Audio Research/Quad setup. (whatever happened to the Naim Electrostats anyway?)

What sould I be listening for with Naim kit? What does it do specifically that nothing else can? How do you desribe "groove" and "timing" to someone like me?

 

Ok, the question makes sense. Probably two questions. Why do we like sound,why don't we try anything else? Putting aside the attitude that everybody has about their kit of "I have made the right choice so don't challenge me, in case I'm wrong"

So the first bit is easy and simply put. It rocks my boat in a way nothing else does. It seems to isolate that bit ina musical performance that I listen to in live music. That is not to say it is like a live performance. It connects me to the musician and their playing of the instruments rather than concentrating on what sounds the instruments are making. This distinction is very fine but it's enough for me. A lot of what others listen for in hi-fi (including the new blackbox Naim kit) is of lesser importance or totally irrelevant for my pleasure.

Second question. Why not look elsewhere. Well Merlin you admit you've had more hi-fi setups than I've had hot dinners, where as I've had Naim for the last ten years and not seriously looked elsewhere. Partly this is because of the above and partly because Naim comes as a package that is easy to upgrade from with in the fold. It works best with other Naim kit so straying isn't likely unless you start completely again. There is no worry about which interconnect to use. Basically the worry is taken out of upgrades. If you aren't really into hi-fi or don't want to swap your kit out each month for something different it takes much of the strain out of the game. You can get obsessive with tweaking stands, power and dressing but the boxes remain constant. The next upgrade is easy, the path is mapped out for you.

So you like the sound and are encouraged to stay with it. Couple that with a sense of fellowship (yessss my precioussss) and a company that delivers first rate customer service you can begin to see why there is so much loyalty. Naim isn't for everone. It may not be the cheapest or the most realistic (in a round earth sense ) butit can be terrible fulfilling for very little effort.