Analog Corner: how big is the tonearm's contribution to a TT's sound?

Being relatively inexperienced when it comes to TT's (only owned a few!), it seems to me that Dean highlighted something important when he used the word "interface"

Surely the parts of a record player should go together like a jigsaw for optimum results? Seems to me, the best combinations I have heard of have been TT/arm combos that were designed around each other. Examples would include SME, Linn, Rega, WT, VPI, Rockport, Roksan etc etc etc....

Doesn't it make sense to build the deck and arm to compliment each other? Getting them from the same manufacturer does seem a sensible option, and has anyone heard a mix and match combination that substantially improves on say a WT ref or LP12/Ekos at those price points (excluding the Aro as that was I understand designed with just the one TT in mind)

 

and which is the best TT/arm combo in the known world?

 

Mana/LP12/Aro. Don't you know anything?

 

Well now I understand everything you said. I don't think that it has any sense to discuss with you when you think in this way. I just hope that other members and guests reading this don't get the impression that what you write is somewhere near the reality.
I just want to point out, that you are talking about best in the world and not about a very good VFM equipment. Maybe once this combination (at least LP12) was a very good TT but since over a decade there are much much better stuff around.

 

What's better, a Ferrari or a Porsche? Let's have a heated debate.

 

my god wake up, go around and see the world don't stay in your small room.
It is not a question of Porche and Ferrari.
You are talking about an Audi 100.

 

Yes, very good.

I could say exactly the same thing to you, but where does it get us?

 

So here are a few TT against which the LP12 is just a toy:

- aas gabriel
- Acoustic Signature
- Airtangent
- Audiomeca
- Aura
- Avid
- Bogdan Audio
- Clearaudio

I am stopping at C but if you want I can go to Z ...

 

Yes, well that may well be your opinion, titian, and fair enough you are entitled (and welcome!) to it.

Just one question: have you ever heard an LP 12 on Mana (phase 8 in my case)?

If not, then you really don't know what you are talking about.

 

Boring......

Who care's weather xyz is better than an LP12......each to their own.
I thought we were talking about the tonearms contribution to the sound of turntables.....

Paul.

 

Interestingly, I was speaking to Terry O'Sullivan of Loricraft at the Heathrow show. He had an Aro fitted to his TT (501 I think). He became quite dewy eyed as he told me that Julian Vereker never got to hear the arm as it could sound.

 

Yes, strange enough I was last weekend at an english guy, living not far away from here, who had that combination with a conrad Johnson and Adam. He told me that he heard the Audiomeca and he doesn't wait for the moment he has money to buy it.
And I understand him. He will keep the Mana (phase 4) though.

I understand that it is for many members boaring. Just don't read our posts.
Yes we are OT so I won't post any more unless I have to say something about tonearms contribution to the sound of turntables. Sorry.

titian

 

You have absolutely no way of knowing that. I deduce that you are using your eyes to assess 'toyness'. I do wonder how many of your list of turntable manufacturers have the facilities to cut records and have done the hands-on research into how the process works?

And none of which begins to challenge the assertion that you shouldn't be wasting your money on good cartridges until you have a very good turntable and arm, whatever your manufacturer of choice.

Paul

 

Pointing out that a thread is going slightly OT, then contributing nothing of your own is very helpful.

You can judge a TT by listening, or alternatively you can look up the list price in a magazine. The LP12 has got up audiophiles' noses since its inception, and it's nice to see that it still does.

The internet myth that the LP12 has been superceded is an attractive idea. It is still a reference deck, and in all probability always will be. We have now had over 50 years of development with vinyl replay, and I think it's got as good as it ever will.

 

Just wondering what version of the LP12 we are talking about here
Pre/Post Valhalla
Pre/Post Nirvana
Pre/Post Cirkus
Pre/Post Corner braces
Pre/Post Trampoline
Pre/Post Lingo II
Pre/Post that bolt in the corner

Yes, the LP12 is a reference TT. A reference for mid range TT's.

 

Lee, would it be fair to say that the LP12 is still the reference when it comes to defining the leading edge of notes and their attack? I guess if that's your priority then it could be considered a great TT.

If however your requirements go beyond that to encompass the entire musical performance, then I suspect the LP12 would fall on it's face in comparison with others.

 

To be honest Michael, I don't know.

I have the feeling that this actually can bring this back to topic. I believe (since I've never heard an LP12 with ARO) that this is sometimes considered to be something that is fundamental to the differences between an Ekos vs Aro.

 

Mr. Paul
the difference between you and me is that I have heard most of these TT in the last one and the half years and I have heard the top cartriges (at my place ) and I heard at least 5 top phono stages in this world (at my place) so I do have a small experience in this field. Another difference between us is that I give my opinion to what I hear and not technical specifications and stuff you read or see in the magazines.
Another point I want to underline: I didn't say at all that the LP12 is a bad TT, actually I would recommend it for lot's of people.

 

what else than tonearm, chassis, cart

There were several threads about tuning TT and something that gets forgotten or people do not realize or underestimate is the importance of a very precise balance which should have a precision of 0.05 gr. The difference in the music are hearable in good TT even when the weight on the stylus changes less than 0.1 gr.
The weight which is written in the specs are only the starting point. After the run in time feel free to test the difference (.1 gr steps up and down) when changing the weight between the range described in the specs.
Sometimes controlling the weight precisely and playing around with it gives better results than getting a better arm, cart or TT.

Another point which has also quite an influence is the VTA. Some arms give the possibility of changing the angle while listening to the record.
Normally raise the VTA and the highs will usually get better._ Too much and you will lose the bass. Lower the VTA and the bass will get stronger._ Too much and you will lose the highs. Usually the settings for the 180gr records and the other ones are different.

Also these two factors (as well as other in the other threads) have quite a big contribution to a TT's sound. Now where do you want to put these factors: tonearm, chassis or cart?
How flexible can a cart be so that you can play with the weight and the VTA? How flexible is the arm to let you play with the VTA? And how good is the TT tolet you hear the difference? And what about the settings in the phono stage? And the other components of the system? And the acoustic of your room? and..

 

What grounds do you have to suspect this? And do you suppose that LP12 owners can't hear what you can hear, and that we have never heard any of the alternatives?

BTW, saying that the LP12 is a 'reference for mid-range TTs' is very very silly indeed!

With a good arm such as Aro/Ekos (and perhaps some others), it sounds brilliant.

As with all equipment, particularly TTs, bad set-up = bad sound.