Analog Corner: how big is the tonearm's contribution to a TT's sound?

[SCIDB]

Hi Chris

This thread seems to be turning into 'what would I do different this time round if I could' ?

No. i don't think so. My first turntable was a Garrard GT255. I got this in 1981. I was cheap (£45) & it played my records. It helped form my first system. (Nikko Na390 amp & Omar Goring speakers).

I my student days, I went to a AR turntable with Mission 774LC & Nagaka MP11. I went to a Elite Rock II with the same arm & cartridge. The differences were very noticable. Better pitch, less blurring of notes, less bloom in the bass etc. Better account of the information on the record. I then, at a later date, went for a better arm then a better cartridge.

I heard how turntables could influnece the sound quality & also how the perfromance can change depending on arms & cartridges. I have always looked at the deck, then arm, the cartridge.

Audition phono stage and cartridge combinations until I found a pair that dovetailed perfectly.

I would do this on a deck that was absolutely superb and totally out of my price range ! - like a platine verdier or a SME 30 or similar..

Then ! - I would try the cart and phono stage on decks/arms that were within my budget until I had the best sound at my price point.

This is not the way I would do it. This is not to say that it would get some good results. You would be up to the mercy of your choosen deck & arm. A lesser deck & arm will show up less differences between cartridges.

for example, If I heard a Ortofon Jubilee cartrdge (£1500) in a high end turntable/arm combination with a high quality tailored phono stage & liked the combination. Then all you could afford was a Project Debut. Would a Jubilee/Project debut setup out perform, say, a Gyrodeck/Rega/Ortofon Kontrapunt A? These are of a similar price.

The Project would struggle to handle all the extra info from the Jubilee. The arm on the Project would not be as good as a lot of better arms. Also the bearings would be as good. This would give you a lose of infomation & the addition of resonances. This is an extreme example but it does highlight a few points.

The cartridge interface with the phono stage is important but I would go with the turntable first.

SCIDB

 

[johnhunt]

The Lp12/ittok/DL110 is the best TT (I've got)

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by The Devil
do you suppose that LP12 owners can't hear what you can hear,

No James, of course you can hear it, it's just that you don't care.

It's about priorities IMO, and if your priority is placing individual players in a vast three dimensional sound stage filled with air and atmosphere, then the LP12 ain't the daddy.

Your adherence to the Mana doctrine amply demonstrates where your personal preferences lie, and for you I suspect the LP12 is the finest turntable in the world. What this means is that the LP12 best suits your needs, nothing more.

 

[SCIDB]

Hi

Me suspects a thread of ''Naim/Linn Lp12 doctrination'' with quickie/paul/bub !! no offense!

just endlessly repeat decade old wisdom (? ) about turntables, that simply doesnt apply to 1990s/2000's decks.

No, I don't think so. I go with the turntable arm cartridge lobby and I have never owned a LP12.

This wisdom applies to modern decks as well as older ones.

To further throw cats into pidgeons and get myself maligned on the internet - IMO a £500 nottingham analogue deck is preferable to a fully specced LP12 to these ears.

The arguement will still apply with the Nottingham Analogue. Take a Spacedeck (£889) put a Rega arm & suitable cartridge then compare with a Nottingham Anna log (£5500) with the same cartridge & arm. The Anna log would be the winner. Apply this test with a manufacturer with a range of turntables using the same arm & cartridge. e.g. Rega, Roksan, Vpi, WT, Avid etc.

The TT first, then arm, then cart arguement might apply to the Lp12 because you've got to spend the earth on its power supply arm and set-up to bring a 1970's design up to date!.. no wonder they thought the cart should come last.

And can you please tell me what advances there have been in technology/design in the past twenty years which specifically impact on turntable performance.

Turntable have the same aims. the reproduce the stored infomation on the record. It's just that different companies do it different ways. The main changes have been in the materials & applications of the designs.

Things such as a acrylic platters, light platters, heavey platters, solid plinths, no plinths, low torque motors, high torque motors, 3 spings subchasis, four spring subchassis, felt mats, cork mats, no mats, one motor, two motors, three motors, different bearings, different feet, space age materials, common or garden materials, heavy turntables, light turntables, energy sink designs, energy isolation designs etc etc. Companies have used some of these ideas.

Companies such as the following have produced interesting designs in the last 20 or so years., Roksan, Pink Triangle, Townshend, WT, VPI, Avid, SME etc.

SCIDB

 

[sideshowbob]

The irony is that everyone on opposing sides of this discussion already has a good TT, arm, and cartridge.

Once you have a good deck and arm, cartridges are a lot like speakers, IME, largely down to presentational preference. As Dean says, a good deck and arm will allow cartridge differences to be clearly revealed. I tend to agree that until you have a properly sorted deck an expensive MC cart may not be the wisest investment, unless it's a short term measure until the rest of the deck is upgraded. You simply won't hear everything the cart is doing.

I maxed out my deck with platter and PSU upgrades before replacing my stock RB300 with a better arm. That revealed the shortcomings of the DV20X-L cart I was using, leading to my current Ortofon Rohmann. It was the path that seemed the most obvious to me, dogmas aside.

-- Ian

 

[7_V]

Originally posted by SCIDB
Things such as a acrylic platters, light platters, heavey platters, solid plinths, no plinths, low torque motors, high torque motors, 3 spings subchasis, four spring subchassis, felt mats, cork mats, no mats, one motor, two motors, three motors, different bearings, different feet, space age materials, common or garden materials, heavy turntables, light turntables, energy sink designs, energy isolation designs etc etc.

So what you're saying is that the power supply to the motor makes no difference and has seen no advances, eh.

 

[wadia-miester]

I have resisted posting on this thread as TT I don't really do, or that matter know that much about
However, I can comment on motor psu's and phono stages, having heard at first hand the differenices either way, a good/bad one makes, on a well set up deck, with both Michele and well tempered/Clear audios, it did surprise me, however all the decks were set up before hand and used decents carts/arms, so it was fair in only the respect of testing phonos/psu's
but opened my ears Wm

 

[7_V]

PS: Triode man, you know I was kidding don't you?

 

[SCIDB]

Hi

So what you're saying is that the power supply to the motor makes no difference and has seen no advances, eh.

No, I never said that at all.

I gave a list of some of the ideas & design features that have appeared in the last 20 or so years. The list wasn't in any order & there are other things that are not in it. Power supplies are included in the list under the etc, etc part.


Different people have used different ideas & designs to try and achieve the same thing.

PS: Triode man, you know I was kidding don't you?

I had a feeling this was the case.

The irony is that everyone on opposing sides of this discussion already has a good TT, arm, and cartridge.

It seems that there are number of turntable users who are of a certain vintage. We seem to have been using decks since the vinyl & flat earth heyday of the late 70's to mid 80's. Also I and others have had hands on experience of our way of thinking.


SCIDB

 

[Paul Ranson]

the difference between you and me is that I have heard most of these TT in the last one and the half years

So lets have an ordered list of your preferred TT/arms, we'll allow for some constancy in the cartridge department. Out of interest how long did you spend with the Lingo/LP12/Ekos? With the Armaggedon/LP12/ARO?

I don't have an opinion about your turntable, other than that it is not elegantly engineered, because I haven't heard it, and I've no way of hearing it in a controlled way.

The basic TT/Arm/Cart heirarchy seems both logical, and to be confirmed by users in all camps.

It's very fashionable to bash the LP12, after all you can get a viable example from as little as £262...

Paul <Not a dedicated follower of fashion>

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by Paul Ranson
It's very fashionable to bash the LP12, after all you can get a viable example from as little as £262...

Paul <Not a dedicated follower of fashion>

Paul, I don't think anyone is bashing the LP12, they are just being realistic, something Linn owners seem to find hard to accept

Why is it that I only ever see that kind of over reaction from owners of maybe three well known British products?

 

[bottleneck]

Originally posted by SCIDB







This is not the way I would do it. This is not to say that it would get some good results. You would be up to the mercy of your choosen deck & arm. A lesser deck & arm will show up less differences between cartridges.

for example, If I heard a Ortofon Jubilee cartrdge (£1500) in a high end turntable/arm combination with a high quality tailored phono stage & liked the combination. Then all you could afford was a Project Debut. Would a Jubilee/Project debut setup out perform, say, a Gyrodeck/Rega/Ortofon Kontrapunt A? These are of a similar price.

That really is an extreme !!

I would of course choose an cartridge/phono stage combination that left me a minimum of £500 for a deck - preferably a bit more.

Take for example a Nottingham analogue interspace. I saw one used recently with an OL'd RB250 for £500. That deck is DEFINATELY good enough to justify a cartridge up to say £750.

Even better, look at sideshowbobs last TT - a Kuzma stabi/stogi - this sounds even better, and I'd go up to a £1000 cartridge on it without fear. I think he paid £600 for it? Its about £1500 new.

I would agree that the way I would audition would not work with an Ortofohn Jubilee and a P3 ! that level of extremety is getting on for plain daft. My old systemdek IIXE was OK but wasnt good enough to warrant an expensive arm or cartridge - perhaps a P3 is the same.

IMO the worlds moved on since Thorens, Systemdeks and Linn LP12s (classics though they are). You can get decks now like the aforementioned interspace and stabi/stogi which sound better than any of them (again IMO) for £500-£750 used. Thats why the TT first then arm then cart arguement isnt as valid as it once was. A very carefully selected deck... will give a very high end sound for mid-fi prices.

What IS daft (IMHO) is buying a deck for £800, saying its not good enough to justify a good cartridge...and putting a £20 cartridge on !!

Sorry, I just dont agree with that at all.

 

[Paul Ranson]

I don't think anyone is bashing the LP12

Titian referring to it as a 'toy' qualifies as bashing. IMO.

Why is it that I only ever see that kind of over reaction from owners of maybe three well known British products?

What over-reaction?

Paul

 

[Paul Ranson]

What IS daft (IMHO) is buying a deck for £800, saying its not good enough to justify a good cartridge...and putting a £20 cartridge on !!

What is daft is buying a deck for £800 and spending £1000 on a cartridge for it, when a £1780 deck and £20 cart would be a better result. And the next time you have £1000 to spend on a cart (which by definition is within 2 years, or you cannot afford to be talking about vaguely serious carts) you end up with a £1780 deck and £1000 cart rather than £800 deck and £1000 cart.

The inter-regnum will sound better too, if your choice of TT/arm is competent.

Seems pretty clear to me. But even the Devil didn't get it....

Paul

 

[quickie]

Originally posted by bottleneck


Take for example a Nottingham analogue interspace. I saw one used recently with an OL'd RB250 for £500. That deck is DEFINATELY good enough to justify a cartridge up to say £750.


Why would you want to use a £750 cartridge on a £150 tonearm?

Paul.

 

[sideshowbob]

To throw a spanner in the works, it's not all about price, but quality. Unipivots like the Kuzma Stogi S mentioned by Chris are a good example. The arm costs £450-ish I think, or £1200 or so with the Stabi S deck. The arm is excellent, well engineered, does its job extremely well, and it's comparatively cheap compared with more expensive unipivots like, say, the Aro. Better than an Aro? No idea, but in the same ballpark I suspect (hard to judge since you rarely see an Aro not on an LP12 and even less often see a Stobi not on a Kuzma deck). Fact is, unipivots are cheaper to make than gimballed arms, relatively straightforward in design terms, and can be had for a lot less money than equivalent quality non-unipivots. (I also happen to prefer them for other reasons, but that's by the by.)

Would I put a £1000 cart on a Stogi S? Absolutely.

-- Ian

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by Paul Ranson
Titian referring to it as a 'toy' qualifies as bashing. IMO.


What over-reaction?

Paul

Paul, I feel Titian reacted to the overenthusiastic ramblings of some. He says toy, some say the best in the world. I think a sane individual would suggest the truth lies somewhere between these two points of view.

For reference, the guy who purchased the Orbe/Sme from me was replacing an LP12/Ekos/Lingo. He says he never realised there was so much music on his records.

 

[SCIDB]

Hi Chris,

The example I gave was extreme. I think it highlights that a quality deck & arm is need to get a very good performance out of a top cartridge. For example, if I picked up a 2nd hand Avid Acutus/rega for the same price of a Project debut, then that system with the Jubilee would out shine the Gyrodeck combo. This is because you have a better deck.

As for the turntable arguements, Ian is right, it is quality of item not size of the price you should go on. This has been my arguement. Quality not price. My debate has looked at new items. But the same applies for 2nd hand, ex dem & old items.

True, people may prefer the Nottingham to the Linn but if you put the same arm & cartridge on the different Nottingham turntables, you will hear bigger differences has you go up to the better ones in the range. Do the same with different arms & the same cartridge on each deck & you'll hear bigger differences as you go up the range. It's all down to the quality of the deck not the price.

Things have moved on but the same rules still apply. The arguement is still valid.

To back all this you do need to have a listen to some examples.

SCIDB

 

[The Devil]

Originally posted by Paul Ranson

It's very fashionable to bash the LP12, after all you can get a viable example from as little as £262...

It's even more fashionable in Anglican circles to bash the gay bishop.

Seems pretty clear to me. But even the Devil didn't get it....

Because I don't think that there's as much difference as you do between the Ekos and the Ittok....you should hear Alan Ball's LP12...it's great, and it's got an Ittok on.

Things such as a acrylic platters, light platters, heavey platters, solid plinths, no plinths, low torque motors, high torque motors, 3 spings subchasis, four spring subchassis, felt mats, cork mats, no mats, one motor, two motors, three motors, different bearings, different feet, space age materials, common or garden materials, heavy turntables, light turntables, energy sink designs, energy isolation designs etc etc. Companies have used some of these ideas.

Come off it. The 'space age' was in the 1960's for a start.

I've heard examples of most of your 'advances' given above. The Pink Triangle, various Michell decks, designs from Rega and SME, Notts analogue not heard but favourable reports. I haven't heard them all, obviously, but nothing I've heard so far makes me think that a revolution (sic) has taken place.

 

[Alex S]

In my system an LP12/Aro/Lingo on 7 bits of Mana was instantly humbled by a Well Tempered Record Player on Hutter. If you have Naim or Linn amps its as well to keep the LP12 since if you bought a better deck you'd be unlikely to hear the improvements.