Anyone heard the GBP7000 NAIM CD Player?

[cookiemonster]

Originally posted by Gambit
That's due to nurture, not nature - The rite of passage all Blackburn youngsters must endure, spending a month "over tops", surviving on skill and wit alone and as much white lightning as one can carry truely makes a man of you, and garners wisdom and insight few can match.
That, or the fact everyone is stupid and depressed due to the fact they live in Blackburn and eventually they grind away at your very spirit and make you want to die and have your ashes shot in to the sun so that medical science can never bring you back to face that again, no matter what. One or the other.

You have obviously dug 'deep inside' the mindset of the Blackburn populace, and i cannot fault your pertinent insights. Now that you have acquired the wisdom through sweat, white lightning and courage, it may be time to escape, before the sun consumes your ashes, and put that wisdom to great employment in the service of your fellow man (even blindfolded ones)

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by sideshowbob
I don't see any evidence of that in this thread. Don't know everything that dat19 uses, but I do know he uses 3-way ATC actives (he said it earlier in the thread), as a minimum that's probably ATC 50s, which is hardly budget gear, and he's been the strongest proponent of DBT here.

I wasn't referring to dat19 or necessarily people in this thread. It has been a theme though in other threads on the subject and on other forums.

It would clearly be in the interests of people with cheaper gear (whether through circumstances or choice) for DBT to show that expensive kit wasn't worth it. Just as the opposite would be in the interests of those with expensive kit.

Michael.

 

[cookiemonster]

Originally posted by sideshowbob
I don't see any evidence of that in this thread. Don't know everything that dat19 uses, but I do know he uses 3-way ATC actives (he said it earlier in the thread), as a minimum that's probably ATC 50s, which is hardly budget gear, and he's been the strongest proponent of DBT here.

How much people choose to spend isn't really the point, that's purely down to personal circumstance, the interesting things in this thread are the fundamental questions about how capable we are of determining differences using just our hearing, and whether it's worth testing that or not.

-- Ian

It may not be the interesting issue, but i think cost IS one of the driving forces in this debate. dat19 may not be included here, but from my observations, maybe not to the same degree on ZG, but certainly on HFC in abundance, it is predominantly those with cheaper equipment that are ardently proposing DBT (despite many of them not actually employing the method themselves it must be noted), AND predominantly those with more expensive gear that are 'indifferent' to such a method. Which is why i raised the point with Lawrie. Perhaps i am mistaken, but that's definitely the impression i get.

 

[Gambit]

Originally posted by cookiemonster
You have obviously dug 'deep inside' the mindset of the Blackburn populace, and i cannot fault your pertinent insights. Now that you have acquired the wisdom through sweat, white lightning and courage, it may be time to escape, before the sun consumes your ashes, and put that wisdom to great employment in the service of your fellow man (even blindfolded ones)

Many and oft have been the times I have dreamt of leaving Blackburn for the wider world, in search of adventure and IQs over 15 but, like some kind of sick and twisted blackhole, all roads lead to Lord Square. It has some kind of evil mass so great, that all prior occupants are sucked back no matter how far away they stray from their wastrel of a mother. The worst part is it seems to be selective - the places I have ventured to in the fair land of England are numerous, but most non-Blackburnites are smart enough to steer clear and never feel the pull. If it were not for the shining outlet of enlightenment, fine music and booze that is the Cellar Bar, I suspect I should go completely insane. ha ha ha.

 

[sideshowbob]

Originally posted by cookiemonster
It may not be the interesting issue, but i think cost IS one of the driving forces in this debate. dat19 may not be included here, but from my observations, maybe not to the same degree on ZG, but certainly on HFC in abundance, it is predominantly those with cheaper equipment that are ardently proposing DBT (despite many of them not actually employing the method themselves it must be noted), AND predominantly those with more expensive gear that are 'indifferent' to such a method. Which is why i raised the point with Lawrie. Perhaps i am mistaken, but that's definitely the impression i get.

You may well be right, although a lot of the stuff I've read from proponents of DBT comes from people who have spent a lot of money on hi-fi in their time, but "saw the light" for whatever reason and decided to stop. Doesn't make their basic point any less valid I reckon. Regardless of the motivation for raising it, the issue remains, particularly when it comes to some of the snake-oilier parts of audiophilia.

-- Ian

 

[cookiemonster]

all roads lead to Lord Square

in all my time, travels and tantrums, i have never come across those six words, in that order, in the same sentence.......I'm afraid i have to inform you, that insanity has indeed set in, and with quite an alarming severity. Drop everything and lock yourself in the Cellar Bar immediately, and you may still have a chance. I'm afraid i am unable to offer assistance at this dangerous time. I fear, were i to enter within a 2.0mile radius of Lord Square again, i might be resigned to licking the floor in Toffs forever in a day. Maybe if you could leg it to the other end of King St, at full pelt from the CB i could arrange a pickup to escort you to safety. Be careful, and remain vigilent in the meantime.......

....Manchester may be your spiritual home, i feel there are many City supporters there, who are in need of your wise counselling. If you can make it, go forth with, and remember it is far enough from danger, yet close enough to still bring your washing home.....

 

[Paul Ranson]

I agree that many of the strongest supporters of DBT are those with cheaper gear who feel that it somehow justifies their systems. There seems to be an assumption that DBT would show all expensive gear to be no better than budget stuff.

But you, as a user of cheaper gear, appear to opposed to DBT? Perhaps it's to do with aspirations, and therefore I invoke 'snobbery'....

I still don't understand the objections. The only way to prove that (say) electrically similar cables sound different is with a listening test. This doesn't require you to choose cables in a particular way, but if you knew that they were actually different you would be making your choice in an informed environment. As it is you have to sign up for a cult belief and operate in an environment ripe for unscrupulous operatives to take your money.

Paul

 

[cookiemonster]

I still don't understand the objections. The only way to prove that (say) electrically similar cables sound different is with a listening test. This doesn't require you to choose cables in a particular way, but if you knew that they were actually different you would be making your choice in an informed environment. As it is you have to sign up for a cult belief and operate in an environment ripe for unscrupulous operatives to take your money.

Paul, i don't see why sitting in a chair with your eyes open when evaluating a new piece of audio equipment has anything to do with 'cult belief'? You may dislike the objections against DBT, but surely describing an individual who listens to his music with the tools that nature provided in a relaxed and quite sane fashion, as somehow being in consort with spoon benders, does nothing to help the argument. There is much that you do in your own life, which operates outside of the boundaries of an 'informed environment' or is not scientifically quantifiable, yet i doubt you consider these actions in the same manner?

 

[ReJoyce]

Paul is right, you don't have to be actually blind and you can still do the dem in comfortable surroundings, over a decent time interval, the only difference is not knowing before you listen and make a judgement which cable/amp/CDplayer is being used. Why is it so hard to accept that "knowing" which is being used could have an effect on the outcome? Doesn't always have to be negative, many people will be looking for a justification for NOT buying something especially a product sounds good but doesn't fit with your preconceived objection to it.

Cheers

Jason

 

[Gambit]

Originally posted by cookiemonster
in all my time, travels and tantrums, i have never come across those six words, in that order, in the same sentence.......I'm afraid i have to inform you, that insanity has indeed set in, and with quite an alarming severity. Drop everything and lock yourself in the Cellar Bar immediately, and you may still have a chance. I'm afraid i am unable to offer assistance at this dangerous time. I fear, were i to enter within a 2.0mile radius of Lord Square again, i might be resigned to licking the floor in Toffs forever in a day. Maybe if you could leg it to the other end of King St, at full pelt from the CB i could arrange a pickup to escort you to safety. Be careful, and remain vigilent in the meantime.......

....Manchester may be your spiritual home, i feel there are many City supporters there, who are in need of your wise counselling. If you can make it, go forth with, and remember it is far enough from danger, yet close enough to still bring your washing home.....

Few punishments could rival entering Toffs, let alone licking its heavily trodden floors. I appreciate the enormity of the problems and the pennance facing you, therefore think you not a coward, merely a survivalist. Manchester is indeed a save-haven, a hidden mesa for those who suffer, but even it's vibrant call and healthy collection of purveyors of the unusual can block Blackburns gravit-esque pull... I escaped once to that hallowed garden, the beast took me back...

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by Paul Ranson
But you, as a user of cheaper gear, appear to opposed to DBT?

First of all, despite what I've said in this thread, I'm not opposed to DBT on principle, I just don't think it's a terribly useful tool for auditioning hifi. If you are sensible and honest with yourself you won't hear differences where there aren't any, ie. you won't let yourself be influenced by other factors (unless of course you want to be).

I'm not afraid to admit that aesthetics, image and reputation play a part in my choices aswell as how it sounds.

On the other point, if you think that a £2000 DAC, a £600 transport (what I paid s/h + mods - new equivalent price probably more like £1000), a £1200 amp and £1200 speakers with £400 speaker cable and £120 ICs (all new equivalent prices, not what I paid) is "cheaper gear" then you have a remarkably high standard

Michael.

 

[notaclue]

Originally posted by michaelab
I was going to post something similar on several occasions here but withdrew at the last minute thinking I'd be branded a hifi snob

I agree that many of the strongest supporters of DBT are those with cheaper gear who feel that it somehow justifies their systems. There seems to be an assumption that DBT would show all expensive gear to be no better than budget stuff.

However, I would suggest that some of these DBT advocates are just as afraid of running an actual DBT session as the detractors for fear of discovering that, in fact, you do often get what you pay for

Michael.

It is not about justifying what you own. It is not about whether expensive hi-fi is better than cheap hi-fi. It is about how we are best able to find out the real (not imaginary) *sonic* differences between equipment. About how we are best able to distinguish things that work and are worth buying from pure snakeoil. If we can't do this, or can't do this reliably, why should we bother having any interest in sound quality?

So, what is the best method?

Based on much I have read, I would conclude any method should at least be blind in the sense that the testee should not let what they know influence what they hear. I mean, in sighted tests John Dunlavy reports how people heard big improvements when nothing was changed. Lawrie's post also indicates how he 'fooled' himself with regard to two cables. Blind testing would seem the best way to prevent this.

If anyone could point me in the directions or any good articles debunking blind testing then please do so and I may reconsider this. I would say, however, that the sheer lack of quality of the arguments against blind testing speaks volumes.

 

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by dat19
I know the last GBP7000 naim CD Player (CDS2) pretty well... ....I prefer the Levinson 390S, which is what I'm currently listening to

Shhhh - don't DARE say that on the Naim forum - you'd be shot down in flames of ridicule
:duck:

I've never EVER heard ML stuff, and I've only heard ONE CDS1 (on a rainy Saturday in Audio-T Reading, when, err, Ian decided to put on my just-acquired-for-50p "Best of Sam Fox" CD (he he he - oops!). It sounded really good, but a bit rough'n'ready - but then that's just like Sam Fox eh?

 

[cookiemonster]

You know, if this blind testing thing actually takes off, the manufacturers will just take to employing perfumers in the final production stages.

 

[Paul Ranson]

You may dislike the objections against DBT, but surely describing an individual who listens to his music with the tools that nature provided in a relaxed and quite sane fashion, as somehow being in consort with spoon benders, does nothing to help the argument.

Your post is complete nonsense.

I don't care how you listen to your music. I do care that if you claim some exotic and apparently inexplicable effect then you should be prepared to demonstrate its existence. The resistance to doing so is what puts you in league with spoon-benders.

Paul

 

[Paul Ranson]

On the other point, if you think that a £2000 DAC, a £600 transport (what I paid s/h + mods - new equivalent price probably more like £1000), a £1200 amp and £1200 speakers with £400 speaker cable and £120 ICs (all new equivalent prices, not what I paid) is "cheaper gear" then you have a remarkably high standard.

Well I think you have way over-priced cabling...

But add all that together and the replacement cost of your system is somewhat less than the purchase price of the Naim CDP in the subject line of this thread...

Paul

 

[tones]

Originally posted by cookiemonster
You know, if this blind testing thing actually takes off, the manufacturers will just take to employing perfumers in the final production stages.

Really? Must tell the R&D Head - fragrances for hi-fi, a whole new concept. I feel a mighty mountain of new patent applications coming on (my assistants will love me...)

 

[PeteH]

Originally posted by michaelab
If you are sensible and honest with yourself you won't hear differences where there aren't any, ie. you won't let yourself be influenced by other factors (unless of course you want to be).

Which is of course entirely impossible - whether you like it or not or even whether or not you realise it, conscious or unconscious influences arising from prior knowledge or pre-conceived ideas are always present. Hence subjective testing is in many cases more of a personality test than anything else.

And for the record I bought my Quad 22L's largely on the basis of the surface finish

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by Paul Ranson
Well I think you have way over-priced cabling...

Well, I paid a lot less than new price for it

But add all that together and the replacement cost of your system is somewhat less than the purchase price of the Naim CDP in the subject line of this thread...

Yes, I realise that. Clearly my kit is not at that stratospheric cost level but I wouldn't describe it as cheap allthough of course it is a lot cheaper than a lot of kit.

I bet that a DBT of the CDS3 vs. the DAC64 would show what a waste of money the CDS3 is though (I believe the DAC64 has taken quite a few CDS3 sales away if the discussions on the Naim forum are anything to go by ).

Michael.

 

[cookiemonster]

Originally posted by Paul Ranson
Your post is complete nonsense.

I don't care how you listen to your music. I do care that if you claim some exotic and apparently inexplicable effect then you should be prepared to demonstrate its existence. The resistance to doing so is what puts you in league with spoon-benders.

Paul

How is an 'exotic and apparently inexplicable effect', demonstrable exactly?

This is sophistry, nay.

It only becomes demonstrable at the precise point at which it fails to become the 'exotic' (i.e undemonstrable)

Anyway, its merely 'resistance' which makes me a spoon bender?

If i acquiesce am i safe, even if it is not demonstrable to your satisfaction, and i still claim 'some exotic and apparently inexplicable effect'?

Your holding all the cards here?

The only way i can REALLY escape being a spoon bender is if i can objectify the subjective. i.e if science does not confirm it, i'm a spoon bender?



Honestly, it should be clear at this stage. I've no problem with doing a DBT, i just wouldn't do one through MY choice, mainly as i couldn't be arsed. I suppose i am doing myself a disfavour? Does this decision make me a spoon bender? I'd be happy to try and demonstrate it for someone elses curiosity, just not my own!