ATC studio monitors

Hi,

Joe said:
That's fine. I think we're just using different terms to describe the same thing; my 'like' being your 'knowing when something is right'. I am seriously thinking about auditioning active ATCs as a means of avoiding multiple box syndrome.
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Make sure to also audition the key competitors of ATC, which include PMC, MEG, Genlec and Meyer Sound in my view, with both MEG and Meyer sound offering highly innovative designs with a much higher performance than ATC's traditional and staid designs.

You may also wish to cosider some of the better active High Fidelity desgns, such as Silbersand and Backes & Mueller (both german, both use motional feedback for their speakers).

Ciao T
 
3DSonics said:
Well, the first question one might ask is if what interests you is to listen to the music or to the speakers. And you may ask if you wish for a system that is accurate or one that is not.
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At the risk of annoying both sides in this discussion, I am a subjectivist (ie one who relies on his own ears to assess hifi). My standard of judgement is based entirely on musical enjoyment rather than on measurements, assuming of course that the speakers in question do not present an impossible load for my amplifier and are stable under normal operating conditions.
 
3DSonics said:
Make sure to also audition the key competitors of ATC, which include PMC, MEG, Genlec and Meyer Sound in my view, with both MEG and Meyer sound offering highly innovative designs with a much higher performance than ATC's traditional and staid designs.

You may also wish to cosider some of the better active High Fidelity desgns, such as Silbersand and Backes & Mueller (both german, both use motional feedback for their speakers).
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If I do spend active ATC level of money, I will certainly a) audition a range of alternative solutions and b) insist on a home trial. I would prefer speakers with at the very least a reliable UK support base, but have no other preconceptions.
 
As far as I can see, "3D sonics" has posted a few opinions rather than any hard facts. His opinion is worth what we have paid for it, i.e. nothing.

ATC pioneered the use of soft-dome monitoring, and superlinear magnet technology. Nothing traditional or staid there.
 
I thought 3d answerd the question very well. Would you consider listening to the alternatives?

Always good to have an open mind imo.
 
Hi,

The Devil said:
As far as I can see, "3D sonics" has posted a few opinions rather than any hard facts.
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What particular facts do you wish me to quote? As ATC does not specify core information on the performance of their speakers one has to go by evaluating the general design. If you compare that with the specifcation level provided by manufatcurers of serious monitors (MEG, K+H) one cannot but observe that ATC do not qualify the perormance of the Speakers particulary well (actually, not at all).

Based on the sporadic measurements of ATC Speakers in HiFi Mags I can observe that they offer neither particulary well controlled dispersion (look at the off-axis response and the step response), one measurement of Distortion and compression in Studio Sound (IIRC) showed them to be not particulary exceptional, compared to other generic monitors.

The Devil said:
His opinion is worth what we have paid for it, i.e. nothing.
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I was refering to actual facts only.

My OPINION is that I do not particulary like the way ATC Speakers sound, even compared to their nearest competitors (Quested & PMC) which I also do not consider particulary outstanding. But that is my opinion.

It is also my opinion that the lack of time coherence and controlled dispersion in the speakers is one of the key disqualifying factors for me personally.

The Devil said:
ATC pioneered the use of soft-dome monitoring, and superlinear magnet technology. Nothing traditional or staid there.
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Actually, ATC makes all sort of nice marketing claims, but the facts are:

1) ATC did not invent soft domes
2) ATC did not use soft domes first
3) ATC did not produce soft domes first
4) ATC did not produce 3" Soft Domes first
5) ATC was not first to design and patent low distortion magnet structures and their technology is significantly inferior to that patented by JBL, to whom ATC clearly does not wish to pay the licence fees....

I do not see that any of the above qualifies ATC as pioneer. ANd given that low distortion magnet structures significantly superior to what ATC uses now have existed for decades.

I think "traditional" and "staid" are very accurate charaterisations, when compared to cutting edge Studio Monitor designs such as the MEG RL-903K, the K+H O500C or the Meyer Sound X-10.

Ciao T
 
Anywhere I can listen to these uber-speakers in Scotland? (The MEG RL-903K, the K+H O500C or the Meyer Sound X-10.) If they're that much better than ATCs they must be pretty god-damned good!!

Dunc
 
I think thats the point Dunc

(I believe) these studio monitors dont have a presence in hifi circles the way that ATC and PMC do. You'd have to speak to people who sell into recording studios..
 
All we have to go on is that some bloke called 3D sonics doesn't appear to like ATC speakers. He has produced no objective data to back up any of his assertions about the company or its products.

I am perfectly prepared to believe that ATC might not make the best speakers in the world, but only if I see some proper evidence first, rather than some anonymous nerd's opinion.
 
Bub, 3D Sonics is the trade name of a company that the "nerd" runs/works for. His name is Torsten Loesch, and if you were less ignorant of vast areas of the hi-fi world, that name would mean something to you.

Regarding the subject at hand, I'll soon be in a position to offer some impressions of my own. I'm expecting a pair of demo ATC speakers tomorrow and hope to try some ME Geithain speakers in June or so.
 
I'm with ya Bub, he has made quite a lot of claims with out backup - then again he's also got a point about the dearth of specs and performance data from ATC. They are rather quiet on that front, and it's easy to see why that would make one suspicious. On the other hand it's hard to see how one could come to as vehemently negative conclusions as 3DSonics, given this lack of data......

I agree with him on one thing, though - ATC don't seem to pay much attention to dispersion, given the amount of time and effort it took me to get my 20s positioned just right (and given the dramatic changes in sound/performance that small changes in positioning can have). I believe with the passive domestic models the grilles are meant to control dispersion and minimise room interactions, which seems a bit crude (particularly seeing as the grilles aren't quite sonically transparent). The actives I presume are designed for the professional environment where presumably the assumption is that room acoustics tend to be much more heavily controlled.

That's not to say it's any worse with ATCs than with most domestic hifi speakers, of course, just that by comparison some pro speaker makes do pay quite a lot of attention to dispersion (Genelec's waveguides being an obvious example).

It's all of course unimportant when your room is suitable and you've got the positioning just right (I managed it in my previous room as well as my current one - it's much easier now that I did it the first time), so I'm not actually complaining. :)

Dunc
 
dunkyboy said:
I'm ATC don't seem to pay much attention to dispersion, given the amount of time and effort it took me to get my 20s positioned just right (and given the dramatic changes in sound/performance that small changes in positioning can have).

...

That's not to say it's any worse with ATCs than with most domestic hifi speakers, of course, just that by comparison some pro speaker makes do pay quite a lot of attention to dispersion (Genelec's waveguides being an obvious example).

It's all of course unimportant when your room is suitable and you've got the positioning just right (I managed it in my previous room as well as my current one - it's much easier now that I did it the first time), so I'm not actually complaining.
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That's arse end up. ATC pay quite a lot of attention to dispersion, they want it to be as wide as possible. That means they depend on the room a lot, but they are designed for studios, where attention to room acoustics should be taken as given.

Thorsten prefers monitors with a more limited dispersion. Most studio outfitters agree with him and even specify the off-axis attenuation that montors need to work properly in their studios.

But this is a case where no approach is right or wrong, if you spend the care and money to get the room right (there is an IEC norm for studio reverberation/absorption), ATCs will work as their maker intended and they will presumably sound good/accurate enough to be chsoen by a number of discerning users.

It is fair to say that the vast majority of studio monitors has more limited dispersion than ATCs, so it looks like most engineers prefer to work with a narrower dispersion as per Thorsten's preference.
 
Hi,

dunkyboy said:
Anywhere I can listen to these uber-speakers in Scotland?
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Doubtful. Neither Klein & Hummel nor Musik Elektronik Geithain currently push hard for sales outside Germany. The Meyer Sound X-10 you could possibly find. You might wish to e-mail each manufacturer with a request for reference sites in Scotland or in the UK and see what is available.

dunkyboy said:
If they're that much better than ATCs they must be pretty god-damned good!!
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The term "good" is a subjective one. I do not cntend that any of these are "better" than ATC, but that they reliably and by design provide a much more ACCURATE reproduction, as the cotention was that no-one makes more "accurate" monitors than ATC, except of course plenty are being made.

Meanwhile I found a gem of a review, which compared ATC's top of the range active Monitor to the Dunlavy V HiFi Speaker (passive) driven by a Pass Amplifier.

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_highend_studio_monitor/

Now Dunlavy uses pretty low brow generic Vifa drivers with no material claims allowable for these drivers as being particulary low distortion, high performance etc. and while the Dynlavy Speakers are pretty good, they are by no means terribly accurate or the best availble y a long stretch (I do know stereophile rates them quite highly though). And the big & bad active ATC (for a lot more money too) did not even manage to comprehensively outperform that thing!

One wonders how it would have fared against an actually MONITOR grade speaker....

Ciao T

Have some links of Monitor Manufacturers who are not afraid to provide reliable and detailed specs on their products:

Meyer Sound X-10

Autograph UK are the only Agents for the X-10 I know in the UK

Klein + Hummel O500C

K+H distribution in the UK by Beyerdynamic

MEG RL-901K (this was the one I meant, not the also pretty decent RL903K)

No known dealer/distributor in the UK for MEG.
 
Hi,

The Devil said:
All we have to go on is that some bloke called 3D sonics doesn't appear to like ATC speakers.
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Correct. I do not particulary like them. There are many other speakers I also do not particulary like. They tend to share many features in design and execution with ATC as well....

The Devil said:
He has produced no objective data to back up any of his assertions about the company or its products.
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I have actually not asserted anything, except noting the following facts:

ATC Speakers are not Impulse/Time coherent nor do they manage to approximate a pointsource overly well

(I might add that these items can very substantially prejudice against correct imaging)

ATC Speakers do not offer particulary low compression or distortion, compared to the state of the Art, based on actual test published in the Studio Press

ATC themselves have chosen not to disclose the technical performance of their speakers and instead use heavy handed and heavy duty marketing of their products. That is their choice.

The Devil said:
I am perfectly prepared to believe that ATC might not make the best speakers in the world, but only if I see some proper evidence first, rather than some anonymous nerd's opinion.
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If you checked my details here on this board you may not have found me as anonymous as you claim.

As for the Speakers made by ATC, they are well made, middle of the road Speakers that in a studio situation offer a good approximation of average specialist HiFi speakers and compete well against generic HiFi Speakers, but non too well against any exceptional Speakers, be they Studio or HiFi.

Note that I do not claim that they are especially bad, merely that have little to recommend them over other generic choices, both in terms of technology and performance.

I am aware that the very well oiled ATC marketing machine claims differently (they would, wouldn't they), but I would recommend taking their claims with a goodley sized grain of salt and to make sure you check the veracity. Marketing departments have a way of overstating facts.

Ciao T
 

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