Cable Happy.

[anon_bb]

George,

If it is imaginary then calling it so can hardly be an insult. Audiophools exist of that there can be no doubt. The comment was addressed to that subsection of the community as a label and to no-one specifically.

The uncertainty principle states that you can only determine space, time and energy to within a combined limit given by the Planck constant. There is nothing in contradiction with my previous statement except that in its fullest sense the measurement the distribution collapses to can only be measured to within limited accuracy as dictated by the HUP. None of this has anything to do with the cable issue or statistical testing above the quantum scale - it is just hijacked to land an air of false authenticity using inappropriately applied legitimate science. Creationists routinely do the same. Your statement concerning the legitimacy of tests is then revealed to be illusory. Even if QM was at all relevant here (and it is not) then even at the quantum level testing would still work in probabilistic terms (and does). Again I point out to you that hearing the difference is itself a test and observation just to point out the untenable nature of your position. If it can be heard then by definition it can be tested. Tests can be constructed to remove the biases you have mentioned and to test the effects of certain parts of the test methodology. Ideally a number of different routines would be followed with the aim of reaching consensus. if differences occur these would be pursued until all of the relevant factors have been addressed and there is a single consistent body of work.

With regard to amplifiers - the wrong thing was being measured, or should I say an incomplete set of things. People now look at things like TIMD effects etc and design with that in mind realizing that other distortions other than THD exist. Measurement, theory and subjective testing were out of sync and continued research and testing has brought them into line. Thats the scientific process. There is no discrepancy of this type with regard to cables.

Sounds familiar - didn't we debate cables before?

Nick

 

[DavidF]

Yes he is and you are (if you don't mind me saying so) beginning to sound as if you are on commission!

Yes, I am a little painfully aware of that.

Its not the case though.

Why not put your convictions to the test. Two of his cables, electrically matched, controlled enviroment.

maybe...

Neutral observers.

Oh yeah!!

Results posted on the forum.

Of course it's statistically insignificant but you may well do better than the Russ Andrews guy.

Its a thought, Mike.

Funnily enough I was talking around this last night with my parents (Dad the origional scientist....)

Off to work now (yes 7-7 nights shift ), will think about this.

Trouble is I am totally stuffed as a rule.

 

[anon_bb]

The cable debate started not long after the people considered they could make a difference. Back in the 70s it all got rolling when people started trying to sell cables as boutique items using the RF frequency skin effect as justification. Some Japanese guy I believe. It was debunked at that time so people just moved into new fairy tales to shift units at vast profit. As the prices reached into he stratosphere the outcry has become louder but thats understandable given the cynicism of the cable industry and the fact that it is just one more factor killing off hifi and its credibility.

My system is plenty transparent - that explanation is bit of a cop out. And it doesn't explain why a skeptic and a believer can listen to the same cable in the same system and form a different conclusion.

Most kit these days isn't that sensitive to LCR.

Does that answer your question Rollo?


I posted the question to find out what you all think. I.m certainly not asking the question to determine my verdict one way or the other. Been in this game for some 30 years. I know that cables sound different. Why? Don't know and don't care.
I believe that cables have different capacitance, inductance and impedance. With that in mind they should sound different as they react with each component.
Secondly, I feel if we really knew what to measure we could put the cable debate to rest one way or the other.
Without insulting anyone and sounding like a pompus arse, maybe the naysayers kits just are not transparent enough to tell a difference. Granted the cost of some of the cables is just over the top. Are they worth it? To me NO. To some yes. I say live and let live.
I mean if someone hears a difference, great, if you don't thats fine. I believe that the issue of all the cable debates started when the prices just went out of control. If all cables were priced within reach of most the debate would not exist. At least not as much.


rollo

 

[George Sallit]

BBV,

If it is imaginary, but it may not be. I am not sure what an audiophool is then. Someone who thinks cables sound different?

I am not trying to bring non-authentic arguments in but just pointing out that it is possible to try and measure an effect and actually destroy the effect by the measurement process. The HUP provides a limit on the capability of the process to measure the energy or position. Could our test (AB/ABX) also be limited?

On you last two points we agree and maybe cables need a similar change in approach as did amplifiers. I suspect it won't happen as there is so little money in it and too many conflicting interests including some (but not all) cable manufacturers whose web pages are er...embarrassing..

 

[banpe2006]

could I just clarify a point that Im unsure of at the present time- Is this argument based on the assumption (rightly or wrongly) that all cables sound the same? For example, if I take Zanashs top IC and put it against the red / white freebie types, is the argument that I would not be able to hear a difference between them, or that, I would not be able to tell which was which or which was "best?" The 1st argument I think could easily tested and should be...the second is impossible to test objectively, due to personal taste. BBV would you clarify please.

 

[anon_bb]

George - I agree. If someone does find something I will be the first to embrace it. However if a difference can be heard it will amenable to some form of test if someone can devise the correct one. HUP is restricted to the quantum level I feel. Even if the effect exists the manufacturers are ripping people off - which I guess is the bit I really object to. The definition of an Audiophool is someone who marks around CDs with green pens that cost a grand.

Given that the LCR are the same to remove that as an issue (and the connectors and earthing arrangements are identical etc etc) then they should should be indistinguishable.

 

[Paul Ranson]

is the argument that I would not be able to hear a difference between them

Exactly, unless Zanash's cables are very odd indeed.

A sensible test would also use an 'odd' cable that introduced a small error into the sound to demonstrate that the environment works and the test is sensitive to small changes. This calibrates the results of the 'good' cable test.

Anybody up for it?

Paul

 

[cooky1257]

IMO bog standard studio cabling is your safest bet-quad core if you feel like splashing out-well made ,no BS, predictable performance with good quality neutrik plugs(most of these cables now feature silver plated 4N ofc conductors-don't know why).trouble is I've made a 'choice' by trying VD starquad , assessing it and liking it in preference to £6.99 maplin mic leads. So I must be an audiofool cos any old screened crap would/should do.
Digital cables can sound different in spite of the fact (if you believe some posters on here)75 ohm should be all that's to it.
A brief trawl across digi cable manufacturers for the video or aerospace /data industries will show there's more to digital than LCR.

 

[banpe2006]

im up for it....would have to be after xmas, but id be keen to test my ear and be proved wrong.

 

[JCL]

Game On !

 

[sq225917]

the issue is cables naysayers, say " all cables sound the same" when in reality what they mean is "cables with measureably identical paramerters sound the same".

but the whole point is the anti cable guys can't predict the sound of a cable based on its LCR values. we all know nearly every different cable has different LCR values, for **** sake don't they read hificritic where they measure LCR for every wire they indepth test.

i know my copper wire sounds different to my silver wire, i don't care if it's LCR or directly attributable to the 6% greater conductivity of silver. it's easier for me to replicate it by replicating the cable than it is trying to measure something i don't have the equipment for.

 

[Stereo Mic]

but the whole point is the anti cable guys can't predict the sound of a cable based on its LCR values. we all know nearly every different cable has different LCR values, for **** sake don't they read hificritic where they measure LCR for every wire they indepth test.

OK let's try and clarify this for you. What I am saying is that under extreme conditions, extreme differences in LCR will result in measurable differences, that may be audible. Now any competently designed cable will not have extreme differences in LCR simply because they are all designed to perform the same task. The tiny LCR differences in most audio cables are sonically totally insignificant and any differences are way outside of the audio band.

i know my copper wire sounds different to my silver wire, i don't care if it's LCR or directly attributable to the 6% greater conductivity of silver. it's easier for me to replicate it by replicating the cable than it is trying to measure something i don't have the equipment for.

Here's what Audioholics have to say on the subject of silver wanky wire. Note the resistance of the copper cable over 50 feet is just 0.32 ohms. Over a meter it will be less than a 10th of that. It really doesn't take a genius to work out that the differences will be totally inconsequential and lead to no measurable audible differences what so ever.

Broadcast-quality cables are generally made with copper conductors; but it's not uncommon, in the consumer a/v market, to run into cables made with silver, or silver-plated copper, conductors. Why is this?

There is one respect in which silver is a better material for cable construction than copper: it is slightly (about 5%) less resistive (that is, more conductive) than annealed copper. "Resistance" is the property of any material which causes some of the electricity that flows through it to be converted into heat, and it's fair to say that resistance, in cables, is a bad thing--the less the better. All else being equal, lower resistance ought to be a good thing, and therefore one might think that silver would make for a better cable than copper.

That would indeed be so, but there are some other factors to take into account. First, the resistive loss in high-quality copper cables is already extremely small, because copper, though marginally less conductive than silver, is an extremely conductive metal. For example, Belden 1694A's center conductor resistance is 6.4 ohms per thousand feet. In a very long home theater run of 50 feet, then, the resistance of the conductor is 0.32 ohms, representing a minuscule cause of signal loss in a 75 ohm impedance video circuit; a solid silver conductor would drop this resistance by about five percent, resulting in a truly infinitesimal improvement.

This infinitesimal improvement might be worth something under extreme circumstances, all else being equal--but all else is rarely equal. First, silver is a more brittle material than copper, compromising the cable's flex-life. To solve this problem, silver is often plated over a copper wire--diminishing the conductivity benefit. Second, the conductivity benefit, as often as not, is offset by a reduction in wire gauge. Going from an 18 AWG conductor to a 20 AWG conductor, for example, results in an increase in resistance of over 50%; this swamps the conductivity benefit of silver, so that an 18 AWG copper conductor is more conductive, not less, than a 20 AWG silver or silver-plated conductor. When the comparison is between full-sized copper cables and silver-plated mini-coax of tiny gauge, like those one sees in many popular silver cable products, there's no contest; full-sized copper cables are dramatically more conductive, silver or no silver.

If you are still convinced of the differences, then by all means do use your ears - do a controlled blind test and see if you really can detect something without the power of expectation.

 

[banpe2006]

so is the test pointless sq? will the scientists use the LCR value as an excuse, should the cables sound different (eg copper vs silver)...because thats what I thought the whole point of this debate was.....that being that there is no difference in the sound of any cables and all sounded similar. Im not interested in LCR values or anything of th elike....all i want to establish is whether "all cables sound the same?" that is what we have been debating right????

 

[anon_bb]

Then you should be able to identify it repeatably under blind testing.

No, we can tell exactly how it will sound in the minority of cases (as SM says extreme variation under extreme conditions will just about be audible - cartridge, passive pre, loudspeakers) where it will make a difference just by knowing the LCR characteristics of the cable and the i/o characteristics of the connected items. It is established science backed up by theory and observation with no contention or gaps in knowledge.

This minority of cases has nothing to do with the differences between cables being discussed here, which is totally separate from consideration of LCR. LCR wont make a difference most likely and we can normalize so that those values are equivalent accross the test anyway.

To add to SMs remarks - the connector would also have constant additional resistance which is the same whether silver of cable cable is used and would further reduce the difference. I haven't measured it but it might well be higher than that of the cable.

the issue is cables naysayers, say " all cables sound the same" when in reality what they mean is "cables with measureably identical paramerters sound the same".

but the whole point is the anti cable guys can't predict the sound of a cable based on its LCR values. we all know nearly every different cable has different LCR values, for **** sake don't they read hificritic where they measure LCR for every wire they indepth test.

i know my copper wire sounds different to my silver wire, i don't care if it's LCR or directly attributable to the 6% greater conductivity of silver. it's easier for me to replicate it by replicating the cable than it is trying to measure something i don't have the equipment for.

 

[zanash]

if the plugs are the same in both cases so will the difference. ie as long as the plugs are identical they will have no impact on the sound . Have two different sort of plugs on different cable then you really won't know whats going on.


If you have different conductors ie silver and copper of the same diameter in the same type of insulation built into identical cable etc the lcr cannot be the same ......

therefore all this lcr talk is a waste of time ....

lets consider resistance this is a function of diameter length and resistivity....so if you change conductor type you can't use the same diameter conductor or length to maintain R. The same applies for L and C .

If you can't use identical cables then this whole discuss is going nowhere.

 

[Stereo Mic]

Based on the Audioholics example above we can approximate the resistance of the copper cable over 1.5 metres as 0.032ohms.

The Silver one over the same 1.5 metre 0.0336 ohms.

Anyone really think they'll be able to hear a difference? Honestly?

 

[Stereo Mic]

If you can't use identical cables then this whole discuss is going nowhere.

Of course you can use electrically identical cables - you just alter the gauge of the copper. Saves about £170

 

[anon_bb]

Of course - but what I meant is that having the same plugs and a constant addition to the resistance in each case will reduce the overall proportional difference in conductivity of a completed cable

i.e. a/b < (a+c)/(a+c) where a > b

The difference in resistance is minimal and unimportant.

I doubt you could even hear the difference in LC between two different components which are properly buffered - a test could be conducted to establish this using variations of a single cable as a control.

if the plugs are the same in both cases so will the difference. ie as long as the plugs are identical they will have no impact on the sound . Have two different sort of plugs on different cable then you really won't know whats going on.


If you have different conductors ie silver and copper of the same diameter in the same type of insulation built into identical cable etc the lcr cannot be the same ......

therefore all this lcr talk is a waste of time ....

lets consider resistance this is a function of diameter length and resistivity....so if you change conductor type you can't use the same diameter conductor or length to maintain R. The same applies for L and C .

If you can't use identical cables then this whole discuss is going nowhere.

 

[Paul Ranson]

If you have different conductors ie silver and copper of the same diameter in the same type of insulation built into identical cable etc the lcr cannot be the same ......

The L and C are defined by the geometry and will remain the same. The R changes by a tiny amount and you cannot hear the effect.

So some proposed pairings,

Freebie against Zanash's best offering.
Zanash copper against Zanash silver.
Anything against cable with a bodge, a series resistor, an RC network, something that affects the signal in an accepted way and at a level that should be audible.

Then we need a venue, here is one option except that I use 8m interconnects made from cheap screened twisted pair. SM has a much more audiophile system so perhaps he'll offer. Maybe even better at a cable advocate?

In the past Zanash has suggested that running both pairs of cable between a CDP with two outputs and two inputs on a pre is a good way to listen to cable differences simply by switching inputs on the pre. So that makes a good basis. I think ABX is an appropriate test, there's no need to make a value judgement, just which is X, A or B.

Ideally a custom controller would be used but I think we could get away with a human operator, and degrade to 'single blind' as a consequence, but still generate good data.

In the trial you get to play as much or as little as you want of all of A B and X in any order, restarting the track whenever, and take as long as you want before making a decision. Repeat until bored or significant.

Paul

 

[RobHolt]

Another option is to use a pre amp with a passive tape loop.
Just insert the test cable into the loop and you can compare instantly with the direct feed at the flick of a switch.

It's a demo I've done several times now and expensive, well regarded cables can never be identified from the source feed. Unfortunately for the 'believers' you get identical results from a cheap patch cord.