CD stoplight - some analysis

Originally posted by Lawrie

Ah, WM!

Flattery will get you everywhere.:D Anyway, I did notice some fighting talk in between the lines which appears to to me that you are laying down the gauntlet for the other cable merchants or audio companies out there? Am I getting warm or or am I getting warm?:D Well good luck with that WM and I look forward to reading some magazine reports on the myth busting products that you will be unleashing on the unsuspecting public.;)
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lawrie, there is warm and tepid as for the reviews, I feel it won't so long till you cast your 'enquistive eye on something'



Btw, whatever happened to those digital boards that you once predicted by PM to me (around 18 months ago) that when inserted into CDPs, they would make TTs obsolete due to their sonic qualities being more analog than even TTs? The reason ask is that since that comment, there has been an explosion in new TTs and accessories hitting the market and I was just wondering whether those digital boards did indeed make it into the market place or whether you miscalculated the effect or impact of the digital boards on CD replay. Any comments? or should I wait for Bristol?
Lawrie.:D
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 :)

lawrie wasn't actualy a digital board, but an total reverse isolated power supply, my fault for proberbly not going in to great depth.
Martain Colloms reviewed one in last Decemebers? hifi +? just after the DCS review, on then the Colloms scale he gave between 20-40% increase in preformance.
Haven't miscalculated lawrie, it's been slowly refined sir, and there will be one or two at show yes, & not just in the 7v room either sir
Just a little snippet they do wonders for TT power supplies and phono stages . and thanks again for your wishes. Wm
 
Originally posted by stebbo

My last paragraph on re-reading it was poorly written. Of course a non optically flat surface can absorb things. That is what you get for typing too fast.

It may well be possible to get an ink that would absorb the infra red light, but these products are not sold as having special ink. It is the green colour that is "special"
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Stu, a common problem the typing thing :)
 
I've very much been playing Devil's advocate here, to see if there might be any explanation for the green pen to have an effect, and I must say it still looks like there just might be. Although if notaclue's post earlier quoting someone saying the optical signal has very high jitter, but that this is irrelevant, is right then all the above is of no importance.

Originally posted by stebbo
It may well be possible to get an ink that would absorb the infra red light, but these products are not sold as having special ink. It is the green colour that is "special"
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You know this I'm sure, but what is 'special' about green is that as it appears green when you look at it in white light it means it is reflecting/scattering the green part of the spectrum, and thus absorbing the rest. Now whether Audioprism have a particular green ink which is optimised to absorb the near infra red CD laser light, or if any green will do, was discussed earlier in the thread and I'm not doing that again...
 
Btw, whatever happened to those digital boards that you once predicted by PM to me (around 18 months ago) that when inserted into CDPs, they would make TTs obsolete due to their sonic qualities being more analog than even TTs? The reason ask is that since that comment, there has been an explosion in new TTs and accessories hitting the market and I was just wondering whether those digital boards did indeed make it into the market place or whether you miscalculated the effect or impact of the digital boards on CD replay. Any comments? or should I wait for Bristol?
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That's the Never connected power supply right? I think Hi-fi news are reviewing one next month.
 
Originally posted by wadia-miester
lawrie, there is warm and tepid as for the reviews, I feel it won't so long till you cast your 'enquistive eye on something'

lawrie wasn't actualy a digital board, but an total reverse isolated power supply, my fault for proberbly not going in to great depth.
Martain Colloms reviewed one in last Decemebers? hifi +? just after the DCS review, on then the Colloms scale he gave between 20-40% increase in preformance.
Haven't miscalculated lawrie, it's been slowly refined sir, and there will be one or two at show yes, & not just in the 7v room either sir
Just a little snippet they do wonders for TT power supplies and phono stages . and thanks again for your wishes. Wm
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WM,

If you were referring to the Never Connected power supply concept, and not digital boards, wasn't this NC concept the technology pioneered by some plastics expert somewhere in the U.K.? I remember reading about this guy a while back and some involvement with Trichord or so but what's this got to do with Omiga Audio and what myths are going to be busted in Bristol apart from the fact that you guys may insert the NC power supplies into some components? Enlighten me sir.;)

Also, from what I recall of the article, (going back a while now and I don't have access to HFN March 2004 edition) this NC concept should in theory at least perform better than the power supply sections in components such as CDPs etc and further reduce jitter. However, regardless of the claimed increase in performance with the NC power supplies installed in say CDPs, I fail to see how this would dent TT sales or even make them obsolete (sorry to drag up an old claim). If anything, their insertion into things like TT power supplies etc (assuming the NC concept is as effective as is claimed) should do wonders for the TT market would it not? Yes, I do have an inquiring mind but it does indeed keep me on my toes.:D

Btw, I believe the NC concept to be a much more interesting idea or concept than marking CDs with green pens but then, that's just me.;)





Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.:D
 
Originally posted by MartinC
I've very much been playing Devil's advocate here, to see if there might be any explanation for the green pen to have an effect, and I must say it still looks like there just might be. Although if notaclue's post earlier quoting someone saying the optical signal has very high jitter, but that this is irrelevant, is right then all the above is of no importance.



You know this I'm sure, but what is 'special' about green is that as it appears green when you look at it in white light it means it is reflecting/scattering the green part of the spectrum, and thus absorbing the rest. Now whether Audioprism have a particular green ink which is optimised to absorb the near infra red CD laser light, or if any green will do, was discussed earlier in the thread and I'm not doing that again...
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I understand you are playing devils advocate and that is fine.

I have said to you before on another forum that Jitter is not my field, but since then I have been in contact with an old development buudy who has left IBM ( with a nice package!!) and has joined a company called Burr-Brown or at least the company that markets upder the name Burr Brown. You might have heard of them?
I have been corresponding with him over the last couple months. His take on jitter is that it is introduced at the moment of conversion from the digital to analogue domain. This has been backed up with some additional research I have done. Obviously that is a simplified take on it, but is sufficent for the discussion we are having here.

I am at a loss as to how a layer of green ink that will not be consistantly applied will effect how the DAC will convert data from digital to analogue.

If you have a theory I would be interested as I am sure someone in the DAC world would like to test it out. There could even be some money in it.

My beef on this whole green pen thing is really the explanation that was originally offered by the snake oil distributors. It appears to be changing to a new explaination now.
And of course that it was started as a joke and now some people will just accept it.
Ah well, the backwater that is audio.:SLEEP:
 
Originally posted by Lawrie
WM,

If you were referring to the Never Connected power supply concept, and not digital boards, wasn't this NC concept the technology pioneered by some plastics expert somewhere in the U.K.? I remember reading about this guy a while back and some involvement with Trichord or so but what's this got to do with Omiga Audio and what myths are going to be busted in Bristol apart from the fact that you guys may insert the NC power supplies into some components? Enlighten me sir.;)
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lawrie, some might say (good song or not? vote now) by the tone of your post, there could be a smattering of cynicisum with a peppering of sarcaisum thrown in there, but we at O/A know you better than that lawrie. it's just that inquistive mind doing what it likes to.
Richard (Fenson) who originaly conceviced and designed the N/C technology has great respect for Trichord, who in turn help to 'finialise' the various different guies of the finished article, which lead to Trichord developing there own 'Never connected dedicated clock power supply'
The very first 'Out House' development & test N/c was benched marked & used as 'real in use senanrio' and ongoing development in Wm's own system, I'm sure a few members remember seeing them 'hanging around' on the previous visits.
It takes a more than Just N/c's to create a truly good sound, however the contribution they make cannot be understated


Originally posted by Lawrie


Also, from what I recall of the article, (going back a while now and I don't have access to HFN March 2004 edition) this NC concept should in theory at least perform better than the power supply sections in components such as CDPs etc and further reduce jitter. However, regardless of the claimed increase in performance with the NC power supplies installed in say CDPs, I fail to see how this would dent TT sales or even make them obsolete (sorry to drag up an old claim). If anything, their insertion into things like TT power supplies etc (assuming the NC concept is as effective as is claimed) should do wonders for the TT market would it not? Yes, I do have an inquiring mind but it does indeed keep me on my toes.:D

Btw, I believe the NC concept to be a much more interesting idea
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lawrie the theroy is a little better when put in to practice, and those that have heard the results can speak for themselves, those that just merely make assumptions based on limited experiances are as in your own words "Hot air is 'us' "
A properly administered CD player (for those who have heard) will know that N/C technology (in conjuction with others) raises 'the bar by a decent margin, enough that when owners of well respected and set up TT's are most interested and surprised at the results.
For TT's too there quite a few interesting possiblies, some of which you will be able to hear for yourself, if you are making the trip to Bristol, maybe we can relieve you of all that sameness :)
A quality TT set up will be in the 7v room inconjuction with N/C technology.
All the staff at O/A again thank you for your interest in our work, we can think of no higher an accolade :)
On your last point sir, we concurr 100%, and have maintained this throughout our association with the N/C technology, the idea is as always, simple and very efficent. A winning combination in anyones book, I'm sure in the comming months lawrie you will be able to find out more of this great technology. Wm
 
Hey WM,

When the wind is blowing in your direction, you do come up with the goods sir.:D I can understand why you or others may have thought that there was a touch of sarcasm or cynicism to that post but I can assure you that it was as straight as a pencil. I am aware of the effects of good power supplies on the audio chain and I first heard about the NC concept whilst visiting a client in New York who also happens to be an audiophile. The information I read about NC came from him. I was only seeking clarification as I was sure that neither you nor Omiga Audio were the creative brains behind the NC Concept and that clarification has been made.

I am always interested in new technologies e.g. the NC concept, not just from the personal use perspective but also from an investment perspective (occupational hazard, I guess). Yes, I do have an inquisitive mind which does sometimes irritate people but that's just the way I am this helps me in many ways than one. Therefore, I will contact Fenson directly for more information. I won't be at Bristol to see you pull a rabbit out of a hat as I will be in the U.S., but tell the boys at Omiga Audio that I will be with them in spirit.:D Good luck!





Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.:D
 
Originally posted by stebbo
His take on jitter is that it is introduced at the moment of conversion from the digital to analogue domain. This has been backed up with some additional research I have done.
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Not quite sure I'd agree with that - i.e. the implication that jitter is introduced by/at the DAC chip (and I doubt that's what you/he really meant), but there it's critical. It's that jitter is entirely irrelevant UNTIL that point (provided it's not sufficiently pathological to generate bit errors). Of course, one solution to minimising it at that point is to minimise it everywhere else too.
 
Originally posted by GrahamN
Not quite sure I'd agree with that - i.e. the implication that jitter is introduced by/at the DAC chip (and I doubt that's what you/he really meant), but there it's critical. It's that jitter is entirely irrelevant UNTIL that point (provided it's not sufficiently pathological to generate bit errors). Of course, one solution to minimising it at that point is to minimise it everywhere else too.
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Graham
This is the direct quote. I didnt put it over very well.

There is only ONE source of jitter that is relevant: at the
output of the DAC. The jitter everywhere else has no relevance
on the sound. You can send the data to the DAC with jitter
measured in kiloseconds: as long as the DAC gets it right, it
makes no difference.

He goes on to say that as you know when designing the DAC that this data is coming in this way, design accordingly.


Now as I said I am not a specialist in these things so really cant add any more on DACs.
But I do know that green ink will not effect read errors from a disc.
 
Originally posted by stebbo
You can send the data to the DAC with jitter
measured in kiloseconds: as long as the DAC gets it right, it
makes no difference.
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Well obviously that can't be true because with jitter that large the order of the bits would be changed :D .
 
Stu - it's OK, we're saying the same thing :)

Martin - it depends what you're measuring the jitter of (or of what you're measuring the jitter). If that's the jitter in the word clock (which is actually the important thing for a multi-bit DAC), the bits will still be in the right order. To accommodate kiloseconds jitter though, the DAC would need a preeeeety big input buffer (i.e. a design solution to the point "as you know when designing the DAC that this data is coming in this way, design accordingly")
 
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Originally posted by GrahamN
Martin - it depends what you're measuring the jitter of (or of what you're measuring the jitter). If that's the jitter in the work clock (which is actually the important thing for a multi-bit DAC), the bits will still be in the right order. To accommodate kiloseconds jitter though, the DAC would need a preeeeety big input buffer (i.e. a design solution to the point "as you know when designing the DAC that this data is coming in this way, design accordingly")
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OK, good point.

Are you saying that you agree the jitter level of the signal reaching the DAC is irrelevant though? My naive interpretation of your comments on the transport thread would make you think you wouldn't. Perhaps this should be left for the other thread though. Although, if it were true, then if the green ink didn't affect bit accuracy (which I don't think it would), then that would mean the pen couldn't do anything... Oh, unless it affected the electrical noise transferred to the DAC with the signal guess.
 
Originally posted by MartinC
Are you saying that you agree the jitter level of the signal reaching the DAC is irrelevant though?
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No...this is the one place at which it is actually relevant/crucial. The discussion may be a bit confused here though about whether we are talking about "DAC"s as nice black/silver/champagne boxes, or the actual chip that does the essential work inside it. The "design to accommodate it" point is the important one - input and output specs and all that.

(And I guess you realised by "work" in the earlier post I actually meant "word")
 
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Originally posted by GrahamN
No...this is the one place at which it is actually relevant/crucial.
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Right, I probably just misinterpretted what Stebbo's friend said.

Originally posted by GrahamN
(And I guess you realised by "work" in the earlier post I actually meant "word")
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Yes, to the extent that I didn't even notice you wrote "work"! My brain clearly just saw wor* clock and read it as word clock :D .
 
I've quoted it before (perhaps on the "old" forum) but it seems relevant to quote it again :)

From "An Introduction to Digital Audio" by John Watkinson, an apparently well respected member of the AES (all emphasis added by me):

A remote convertor which sounds different when reproducing, for example, the same Compact Disc via the digital outputs of a variety of CD players is simply not well engineered and should be rejected. Similarly if the effect of changing the type of digital cable feeding the convertor can be heard, the unit is deficient. Unfortunately, many consumer external DACs fall into this category, as the steps outlined above have not been taken. Some consumer DACs, however, have RAM timebase correction which has a large enough correction range that the convertor can be run from a local fixed frequency crystal. The incoming clock does no more than control the memory write cycles. Any incoming jitter is rejected totally.
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...he's clearly referring to the DAC64 in the last couple of sentences. My experience with it would show his assertions to be correct :MILD: . I do pity the rest of you though with "simply not well engineered" and "deficient" DACs though :JOEL:

Michael.
 
Originally posted by michaelab
...he's clearly referring to the DAC64 in the last couple of sentences. My experience with it would show his assertions to be correct :MILD: . I do pity the rest of you though with "simply not well engineered" and "deficient" DACs though :JOEL:
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Thanks Mike :) , but I'll take your "pity" over the Dac 64 anyday but thanks for your concern over our deficent dacs sir, It's appriecated :gould:
 

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