CD stoplight - some analysis

Regarding photosynthesis....see

http://photoscience.la.asu.edu/photosyn/education/photointro.html

I was only using it as an example of red light absorbtion by green pigmentation. Rathe than an indepth treatise on photosynthesis.

The fact remains that for me in my system the green [and to a lesser extend black and purple]pens do have an effect.

 

The 99p Pub Menu marker pens are very opaque indeed. A friend had one of the hi-fi ones, cost him about £15 over 10 years ago. Had to laugh when I saw the exact same thing in WHSmith a few years later.

If it does or doesnt work fine, just dont get fooled into paying £20 for one. I tried it on a few discs when it was all the rage back in the early 90's and couldnt tell the difference. In fact when I pull a CD out of my collection that has the green on it I chuckle to myself "ahhh bless!"

 

Really

 

That would be what would need to happen for incorrect reading of ones and zeros correct? Can I just ask you what you think of the argument that the stray light causes jitter instead? This is after all what Audioprism themselves claim is what the Stoplight pen reduces the problems of:

http://www.audioprism.com/products 2.html

(you have to scroll down a bit).

 

Merlin,

My posts may not be the most rivetting to read but I would suggest you make an attempt to read them properly before posting the above. I select all the products based on sighted listening tests in dealer showrooms. Once at my house however, the setting up of the listening area and switching of components are conducted by friends and when I walk into my listening room, I am not aware which component is playing as I cannot see any components. All I have to do is listen with my ears not my eyes and make notes accordingly. Yes, my method may be compromised by laboratory standards but at least I am able to satisfy myself that my choice, when or if made, would be based on what I heard not some flashing blue lights etc that I saw. This also ensures longevity of the components that I buy as I tend to keep components for many years rather than for just a few weeks or for one month at a time like many people on this board.

As to why ZeroGainers are so reluctant to undertake blind tests even amongst themselves I can only to put down to fear of what they might discover. But yet it is okay to plot graphs to determine sound quality. Is it any wonder the high-end is so full of mediocre sounding components. Still it's your money.

Robbo,

Admit it - you get turned on by measurements. Btw, what do you do for a living because it could have a bearing on your love for measurements. As to whether I make or lose money on hifi components it is for me to worry about isn't it? Anyway, since you so kindly asked, I'll oblidge - my TT, amp and speakers were new, and my transport & DAC, tuner, rack and all cables were second hand/ex dealer demos. Considering I do not turrnover or change my components like many audiophiles on this forum, and that I intend to hold on to my present components for many years to come, how exactly how am I losing money? Also, when you factor that I am able to get many brand new audio components at well less than dealer retail prices and sometimes even at the same prices or even less than second hand prices e.g Wadia 861, Chord DAC64, Ayre CX-7 etc, etc (the list is endless) then ask yourself, how can this guy lose money? As a music lover, I buy my components to enjoy music not to display them as trophies. If the latter was my aim, then using my contacts, I would be using much more high-end components, but the truth is that many so-called high-end components offer poor sound for the money and you will only find this out when you listen with your ears. To hear music is not the same as to listen to music and as much as I hate to say it, many audiophiles such as yourself only hear the music. It could explain the constant and never-ending need to upgrade as we witness day-in and day-out on this forum. Having said that, when I do get the bug to change my speakers, I will delving into the wonderful world of electrostatics but that's several years down the line.





Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

Lawrie - don't quite get your angle here...and some of your barbs are definitely aimed at the wrong targets. You've put effort into attempting objective (or at least controlled subjective) tests of your kit, but then take big sideswipes at others trying to get beyond simple subjectivity and make similarly objective tests .

If anything, Robbo is in the anti-measurement camp: it's stebbo, dat19 and notaclue who are strongly in the pro-measurement nay-saying camp, Isaac and Michaelab amongst the pro-measurement believers, myself and maybe MartinC (physicists with an interest in correlating perceived with physical changes) sideshowbob and joel amongst the interested sceptics, then Merlin and WM as the out and out subjectivists. The only disagreement I see between you and Robbo is his belief he can consciously isolate his aural perception from the power of suggestion.

The point of the measurements is to establish whether there is any identifiable physical effect to correlate with the alleged audible improvements. A positive difference would show that something is definitely happening - a negative would show that we need to look at something else. Isaac is probably the first person on these fora since adb who's actually put any serious effort into such an experiment.

This is called investigation and enquiry. Without it we would still believe that the Earth was flat, was the centre of the universe and the world was made in seven days.

 

I really dont know where you get this one from. Sorry, you are wrong. measurements have their place and I am not aganst them per se, but IMO all judgements as to the sonic worth of a component should be made by ear.

Fair enough, I shouldnt have raised the issue.

me too. Agree 100%.

wrong again. Where do you get these ideas from? They are so far off the mark that its laughable!

Yes, but not from me, I reckon that am one of the people on the forum who change their kit the least. I can give you a run down of my past equipment history if you really want.

Graham wrote :-

That about sums it up. And the only reason I think I am able to do this reasonable well is that I believe that if you live with something on extended dem for a week or so, the novelty of having a fancy bit of kit wears off after a couple of days and you listen far more critically. The few expensive items I have had on dem at home for a week or so have all ended up going back to the dealer as they were not worth the extra money. an entirely pragmatic approach AFAICT.

Have fun, Robbo

 

Lawrie,

I'm sorry but you seem to have missed my point. This is that you select products first then choose the best of this limited selection under "blind" conditions. I applaud your methods but......

If you want to go the whole hog, why not let one of us in to make the changes behind a curtain. Then when what you percieve to be the difference between say the Dac64 and Trivista turns out to be nothing more than the addition of a power conditioner, the replacement of the mains chord, and a change of interconnect, maybe you would stop deriding others as being somewhat deluded.

 

One point made by Isaac in his first post was

No-one's challenged that here - although there's been a fair war going on over the way. But in case anyone does have any doubts about that claim, I thought I'd run a test. While it's far from conclusive (it's not using an audio-drive for a start), I just ripped a few tracks from a couple of CDs. Both CDs were of the same performance and issue (Chandos CHAN3022 - Rosenkavalier Highlights) - one was bought 2nd hand a few years ago, the other was sent to me as a free gift about 3 months ago, and was unwrapped and green-penned yesterday. If anyone's interested, there looks as if there may me some slight manufacturing differences - the newer green-penned one may have a slightly squarer edge, although it's difficult to tell as the paint gives it a rougher matt finish (and I forgot to have a good feel before inking up!)

Both were ripped using MusicMatch JUKEBOX 7.1. I only compared about 8 mins 20 seconds (about 80 MB), but there were ZERO bit-differences in the audio data (a few bytes were different in the tail of the file, due to different filenames).

I have also tried ripping on two different drives: CDRW and DVD-ROM. The CDRW ripped at about 8x, the DVD about 16-20x real-time. I've not made an exact comparison, as there is an alignment difference between the two of 0x168 bytes (differences in handling lead-in/out track positioning) and I don't have a hex editor that can handle 50MB files (anyone know of one?), but they look identical to the eye so far. Zero differences in the data section of the WAV files between the penned and non-penned disc also on the DVD drive.

OK not a watertight expt - but a fair indication we are indeed not talking about bit-errors.

 

I dont thinlk anything of the argument as you cant have it both ways. This has been sold on the basis of reducing errors due to absorbing stray light. Irrespective of the legitimacy of that claim, the function cant now be reducing jitter.

It is one or the other!

That sounds like desperation

 

Hey STU...............we missed yer your gaining quite a fan club, can we have your autograph please ?, cheers your most humble admirer

 

Good eveningWM

Have you washed the snake oil your hair yet?

 

Graham

My angle is a simple one really. These particular tests or measurements being performed and now discussed are useless especially when the evidence they will be compared against are the alleged audible improvements of a few green pen believers. Most of the guys who claim improvements would have marked the CDs themselves and also done the comparison with a non-marked CD themselves. Now, experience suggests that these individuals are bound to hear improvements due to pre-suggestion. So is this the evidence that the graphs and measurements etc would be compared against? If so, may I suggest that the chartists on this board plotting graphs and carrying out such measurements go and listen (not hear) to some music instead? That's my angle.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

Take one cynic into the shower on Z/g, nah you can have a whole crew can I have a signed photo as well stuie ?

 

Actually these tests - and I would like to applaud Isaac again for actually taking the effort to carry them out - only really have anything to offer the SOZs in terms of settling the "big questions" here. Any positive result of any kind will be leapt upon as vindication of keeping the faith all along, whereas any negative result will be held up as evidence that obviously the wrong thing was being measured or whatever.

 

Merlin,

No need to apologise as it is you who has missed the point. All home tests are carried out without messing around with power conditioners, different power cords, interconnects etc. All those items remain constant (my own cables and the manufacturer supplied power cords are used) unless you believe in changing your cables, conditioners etc each time you change e.g. your CDP etc - I don't so all other items remain constant. Good CDPs etc should be able to reveal audible differences using my existing cables etc without resorting to things like power cords, or using different interconnects etc. In my view, differences between cables are marginal at best, so that is not a route that I follow. I'll leave that to the audiophiles.

Now given the amount of times you change your gear in a week, I think you more than anyone else on this board would benefit from properly controlled blind testing before you spend money on your next 'big find'. Anyway, if expressing my personal opinions means that I am deriding your buddies on the board, then I make no apologies. I thought that free and open speech was one of the premises on which ZeroGain was set-up or is hero-worshipping and back-slapping now the order of the day on this board? Well guess what Merlin, that ain't my style.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

Hey lawrie, no need for apologies sir that statement couldn't be any farther from the truth.
If that nasty merlin is causing you problems, you let me know and I'll sort him out :grrr:
Your opinion is always welcome, your not the sort of person who shy's off when the going seems to get tuff, I know your made of sterner stuff lawrie a man with a will of iron Wm

 

What? And pay UK retail prices Lawrie? Now that surely would be "blind testing"

How can you say that Lawrie if you exclude them from your blind testing sessions?

 

Point of order sir

I think I'm the only one who has used a system that can verify any the listening experience by measurement in the frequency and time domains and display the results on the PC.

 

Simple Merlin!

When I CDPs, I test CDPs only. When I test amps, I test amps only and when I test cables, I test cables only. It couldn't be clearer than that. Given the fact that I have no desire to change my cables in the near or even distant future, there was no need to test cables. The guys were swapping only digital front-ends using my own cables to transmit the signals.

Btw, I agree with you about U.K. prices. I must say though that I do feel sorry for my U.K. brothers that have to pay full retail on audio products and even the prices of some ex-dealer demo products exceed the full retail prices of the same products in some European countries or the U.S. But then again, as one manufacturer once casually put it, "the U.K. is the land full of milk and honey" so I suppose the products are priced accordingly.


WM!

Read my comments again. I made no apologies as there was no need to. Anyway, is Omiga Audio going to be introducing any Myth Busting products at the Bristol Show? Given that the high-end is now full of much too much sameness in the different products out there, I'm hoping that the creative genius in you will unleash something different from the rest of the crowd. Don't let me down WM, I'm counting on you for my next big upgrade.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.