Dark Side Of The Moon,and bass

Saab,

I know exactly what you mean with reagrds to this "cone flap" My copy of "Led Zeppelin II" makes my cones go mental :eek: I also own the CD version which doesn't cause this "cone flap". At first I thought that this was due to the fact that I was using a cheaper (albeit superb sounding) TT - a Rega P3.

However, even after having recently acquired an LP12 it hasn't gone away - or got any less for that matter! I won't pretend to know what's causing it, but I will say that I don't believe it to be an indicator of vinyl's superior fidelity over CD. (If anything, it's a bad thing)

All I will say is that it does annoy me, and on the vinyls that do exhibit this problem, I am reluctant to "turn it up" for fear of damaging my speakers.

Regards,

Lefty
 
Yeah must be a disaster! Quick someone buy me some rubber and a bicycle pump!

Seriously for a minute, it's nothing more than rumble. In the old days, most amps had rumble filters seeing as the average buyer had the good sense to own a turntable. These days they don't so you see the effect.

As for large cone excursion, you do get substantially greater excursion when playing back vinyl even ignoring the rumble aspect. You also seem to get substantially more real bass that is at once both chewy and bouncy (much like a kangaroo).

So why worry if you cones move about a little? Hey they might even run in properly!
 
Uncle Ants said:
S'funny, the only time I ever saw a cone noticeably "flap" in any way was playing a CD, not vinyl - just about three seconds of it about half way into Hey Boy, Hey Girl on the Chemical Brother's Surrender, there's a break and a wibbly noise - send my speakers into a bit of a fit.
Click to expand...

This does the same with my setup, with 'surrender' on CD...the wibbly noise (more evident at the end of Hey Boy, Hey Girl as it moves into the next track) into is some vinyl scratching/rewind effect applied to the track...seems to create some very low frequency artifacts. A lot of recordings I've heard which have scratching on, seem to create similar artifacts (House of Pain 'Jump Around' has one scratchy bit that creates exceptionally large cone excursion).
 
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I'll have to give "Surrender" a spin later on. The opening of track 23 on Chesky's "Ultimate Demonstration Disc" CD :rolleyes: also has serious cone flap. No idea why.

When I get my TT I'll let you know if it does bass better than my DAC ;)

Michael.
 
merlin said:
Seriously for a minute, it's nothing more than rumble.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to be confrontational and I could be wrong, but.....

I would be surprised it it were due to rumble since even a Technics 1210 - (which employs a direct drive motor which has inherently higher levels of rumble than a belt drive TT) only has a rumble of -78dB which is absolutely tiny.

Lefty
 
Lefty said:
I'm not trying to be confrontational and I could be wrong, but.....

I would be surprised it it were due to rumble since even a Technics 1210 - (which employs a direct drive motor which has inherently higher levels of rumble than a belt drive TT) only has a rumble of -78dB which is absolutely tiny.
Click to expand...

Merlin,

I could be wrong, but must say I have my doubts as well. I've never seen it on any system I've had right back to my first deck - a Trio KD-1033 - either I've had a run of superbly rumble free decks (as well as the Trio, a Project 2, a Michell Focus One and now the NAS) ... or its something else ... maybe. None of my amps have had a low freq filter either (so far as I know).
 
Paul (Ranson)

I couldn't be bothered with all the arsing about you have to do with an LP12,turning one bloody dial is enough.
The pre-amp is a new MF XLPS,which dramatically improved the sound over the Project I had.I wonder if its this amp,as i haven't noticed it before I got it.However,it seems rapid cone movement is more common than I though,everyone here seems to have it in some form of other,unless we all have poorly set-up systems.
Anyway,i don't know whether its rumble or flap,haven't a clue,
 
whose on it?
Click to expand...
The disc has a lot of different tracks of different kinds of music (mostly jazz) for showing up different aspects of a system (apparently). Track 23 is a recording of Benjamin Britten's "Festival Te Deum" (for choir and organ) in Westminster Cathedral made with a single mic suspended from the ceiling of the church. It's meant to demonstrate "Holographic Imaging"...I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean but nevertheless it sounds damn good. You really can sense the space of where the recording was made. The cone flap on that track could possibly come from pressure variations caused by the air pump for the organ (who's hissing away is distinctly audible on the recording). Otherwise no idea.

Michael.
 
I have,but doing it yaself deliberately is worse than a noughter I think
 
sideshowbob said:
Where's SCIDB when you need him?

I think 7_V's resonance suggestion is worth exploring, somebody on PFM is bound to know more.

-- Ian
Click to expand...

Hi All,

It sounds like it could be the arm/cartridge combination is producing a low reasonces frequency. This means it will produce a greater output when it gets near a certain frequency. The ideal reasonance frequency is around 10Hz ish. But if much lower, you will get cone flap. (the reproduction of warps). Also you could get an increase in rumble from the turntable.

The turntables will be picking up various vibrations and this could be adding to the effect. Also there will be frequencies on the record that will cause the cones to flap.

Try switching your deck on without a record on the platter. Turn the volume up, can you hear any rumble or see any cone flap? Turn the volume down, put a record on. Switch the turntable off & put the stylus on the record. Don't turn the on but slowing turn up the volume. Do you hear any noise (howling etc)? Do you see any cone flapping. Also play a intro or outro groove on a record. The parts before or after the recorded groove. Look at the cone, is it flapping?

As a rule, this is not too much of a problem but better turntables the less this effect is.

SCIDB
 
SCIDB said:
Hi All,

It sounds like it could be the arm/cartridge combination is producing a low reasonces frequency. This means it will produce a greater output when it gets near a certain frequency. The ideal reasonance frequency is around 10Hz ish. But if much lower, you will get cone flap. (the reproduction of warps). Also you could get an increase in rumble from the turntable.
Click to expand...

I was thinking that, and was about to reccomend a record test disc which will show what your arm/cart resonance is like at different frequencies.
 
cheers

done all that,no noise at all at 12oclock apart from usual hum,just put some Chopin on and had the same cone wobble,or flap,whatever.it only flaps with recorded music,not before

might get an Origin arm
 
Its all about the interaction of the cartridge and the arm, and the frequency at which the combination resonates.

All arm and cart combinations have a frequency at which they resonate most extremely, its a question of getting a combination that resonates outside of the essential range of notes commonly found on recorded music.

A test disc plays notes of different frequencies to show at which frequency your arm/cart combination is most resonant.

I dont know of any way to know for sure what the result will be in advance, before you've tried it - the only way I know of finding out is to put a test record on.

It makes buying arm/cart combinations a little bit of a minefield, and you really need a sale or return deal with a dealer IMHO in case you get it tragically wrong!
 
when it comes to HIFI,i am always tragic and usually wrong,but i will try a test record for a laugh
 
Uncle Ants said:
Merlin,

I could be wrong, but must say I have my doubts as well. I've never seen it on any system I've had right back to my first deck - a Trio KD-1033 - either I've had a run of superbly rumble free decks (as well as the Trio, a Project 2, a Michell Focus One and now the NAS) ... or its something else ... maybe. None of my amps have had a low freq filter either (so far as I know).
Click to expand...

Rumble doesn't have to be added by the turntable. It can be added by the cutting lathe, or you can have an uneven electric charge permanently trapped in the vinyl if it is pressed too fast, etc..
 
SCIDB

right,thanks for the advice

when lowering the cart with power off and volume on,i get a big flap at contact,then it settles,and when increasing volume,there is no big hum or noise,which is good i suppose,but i do get the odd flap

i assume i have to live with this?
 
and when I tap the rack,TT off,and volume at normal levels,with cart lowered onto record,i get flap,so this means its to do with the arm?

I suppose a new arm will be a decent upgrade
 

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