Got me a record player!

Well the TT is now set up

A long afternoon was required, the amount of care required with one of these contraptions is astonishing, aligning the springs, tuning the base and so on That was before we started playing with the cartridge loading and gain.

It was interesting that both visitors today are confirmed vinyl fanatics, one in the industry, and the other a mastering engineer. Neither of them had heard the TacT setup before, but were of course fearing the worst

Well they were unhappy with the results using the Michell to start with, as was I. Obviously using an ADC is less than ideal, a fact pointed out by my visitors, although it's use is essential in my current listening enviroment. After much toing and froing we ended up with a compromise that I found most enjoyable, if flawed. It was funny that they seemed to be trying to make the TT sound more like CD, whilst I insisted on using 100 ohm loading to get that warm, smooth Koetsu sound. Aparently most people find this loading to lack air and soundstage Well it does, but then for me, air is unatural anyway, body and warmth are far more important.

So the Michell's strengths for me are enormous bass power, an architectural quality missing from even Wadias and Teacs, and a suaveness that is beguiling. The disadvantages are less precision in the bass, less secure placement, and massively higher noisefloor (although I accept this is less distracting on some stuff than one might assume)

I'd say that both sources now have their strengths, although, the CD, with longer playing times, remote control, and importantly, the ability to sound good with anything, would still be the preferred option for general listening at my place. More exposure is needed to form a definitive view but the day did cause a surprise or two

The biggest shock was the two vinyl heads sitting with smiles on their faces whilst I demmed the CD playback. Their comments went along the lines of it being the most analogue like digital playback they had ever heard, along with favourable remarks about flow, pace, and groove So they both left with their opinions of digital replay somewhat altered, I was left apreciating some of the things that even a great digital rig like the TacT cannot emulate.

I suspect that, for me, the convenience and reliability of the digital route will win out, but that won't stop me grinning like a cheshire cat when I hear the names Koetsu and SME I will for the time being, hold on to the Orbe, you never know I might just start to become addicted

 

Merlin, glad to see you are enjoying the delights of analogue, it does have it's charms for sure, and for pure flow, I feel none better than a decent TT set up
Although late on a saturday eve, and moi a touch worse for alcohol I will protest slightly on this issue
"So the Michell's strengths for me are enormous bass power, an architectural quality missing from even Wadias "
All I can say here is not all Wadia's, as even the man who builds the electronics for Mitchelle will testify, It may not have the total weight (95%) but it's far faster/tighter/spot on timing and cleaner. For me the clincher, but for others not, as for flow, well you have to listen for yourself But nice to see an open mind again here. WM

 

Splendid Merlin. Stick with it and start hoovering up some secondhand vinyl. It needs feeding regularly with new bits of black stuff to perform at its best.

-- Ian

 

Ah WM, but did you hear the thwack from an Onyx

Sad to say I think the Koetsu has seen better days The cost of a rebuild is unreal, so may look to trade it in in the near future for one of the lesser models. This is new territory for me, cartridges ain't my strong point

Geez, I've even got a bloody valve amp sitting next to me Shame it doesn't do crossovers and EQ

 

vinyl/cd

This weekend I upgraded to the Silver arm by Origin Live and Rohmann cartridge. I'd like to add my experiences to this thread.

My turntable is a Michell Mycro with modified supports, the preamp is a McCormack passive. Power amps are Henry Kuck III valve monoblocks (home-made in the USA) with twin Crimson Elektric CK1100 solid-states for the sub.

Speakers are by a little known British company.

I've been using an EAR 834P valve phono stage with a Paravicini MC transformer but I have to hand a new YS-Audio Concerto phono preamp and a matching Solo MC pre-pre that I'd picked up on eBay (traded for a small atomic energy plant or some-such) so I thought I'd try them.

Unfortunately, although the sound had great clarity and presence, it was a little too bright and after a while I decided to switch back to the EAR stuff and I was quite relieved when I did so. I realized how good the EAR is and how much more of the Rohamnn the Silver arm could bring out.

YS-Audio recommend 100 hours running in time and this I didn't give them. Can anyone tell me what the likely effects of running in might be and whether it might sort out the over-brightness? I'm a first time 'new valve equipment' owner and wonder if the YS-Audio stuff might have potential.

Meanwhile, and this is for you merlin, if you're still with me, I played identical tracks on CD and LP and cut between the two. My cd player is a Rega Planet 2000, awaiting its planned clock modification.

So I could compare the Michell, Silver, Rohmann, EAR rig to the Planet. What did I hear?

Well, tonally they were more or less identical. This surprised me.

The bass sounded woolier on vinyl than on cd and although the noise level on this vinyl set-up is low, the cd is quieter still (merlin, are you sure everything's right with your record deck noise-wise because your turntable combo should have more potential than mine?)

On the other side, I somehow find the entire listening experience of vinyl a little more pleasant. I can't really describe the difference. Vinyl sounds slightly more real to me (organic, non-synthetic?). Anyway, that's the stuff I find myself listening to and I'm loving it. Mind you, come to think of it, I would. I've just made a new upgrade.

Off to turn over the record. Enjoy the music (as they say).
Steve

 

Re: vinyl/cd

LOL

Michael.

 

Good stuff Steve, sounds like a similar experience to me, with a slightly different slant.

Firstly Steve, let's bear in mind the cost comparison. I reckon that, allowing for the Mycro at about 300 quid, the vinyl front end would cost 2.5 times that of the Rega So it SHOULD sound considerably superior, we are after all told that a good vinyl front end will see off even a high end CD player.

Very similar to my findings Steve, although in my case, I suspect some of the noise is due to the age of the cart. Also bear in mind that my all digital setup is totally silent I do get hum from the Delphini, we have reduced this but I am shocked that Trichord don't sheild the thing adequately Needing to site it three feet from the tt PSU and switch off the P30 shouldn't be neccessary in this day and age.

Again Steve, I can understand the above comments, there are qualities that force me to cue up the vinyl for some listening. For general use though, I'm happy with my CD replay. And yes, we both are probably looking for something to justify the considerable expense of our vinyl playback systems

Well that doesn't really shock me. My experience suggests that the room and speakers have more impact on tonality than the source component. Your speakers drive units will ultimately dictate this IMHO.

Yeah you do have to do that a lot don't you. Just relaxing into the music when you have to get up to change sides I need to mount the Michell on a swing type table that you eat off in hospital or incorporate music listening into my new fitness regime

 

Good point, although I suspect that the Planet could see off some cd players in the £1,000 range.

Yes, come to think of it I meant to say that they were tonally perfect not just identical. :duck:

More power to your tone-arm
Steve

 

:ffrc: :ffrc: :ffrc: Sorry couldn't resist, if you TT front can't obliterate that player, then it's Time to get Merl's magic mate round for a set up Urgently
I will resist (been told to be a good boy these days), the Planet and all Rega's, respond damn well to another clock and other mods, (and they need too) we had a couple back to back about 3 weeks ago hummm even Timpy sighed, Jupiter transport too, man er.. they do need some help.
Try Trichord/Audiocom (JC's on the forum too)/LC Audio for some much needed upliftmentand sonic enhancement. WM

Added, Timpy suggested that all hospital cases be directed to Bristol Royal infirmary

 

Thanks w-m.

I've got a clock and power supply from Net-Audio that will probably do the trick. From what you have said it should be worth fitting.

What are the other recommended mods?

How far can I take the Planet 2000 (to replace it would, presumably, be expensive)? When I do replace it, should I go for a separate DAC, or what?

Steve

 

Well, the list is endless, I would change the op=amps, for either AD 285's or BB opa 627's, decent regs in the output stages, damping odd bit of copper
I feel you a one box man rather than dac guy? or could I be wrong?, the rega's do wake up, not too badly, but depends on what you want as finial result? maybe the obvious dac 64 or makbe a Wadia 21. The rega's I do find limiting if you are looking for 'nice performance' WM

 

Uh, the pennies just dropped with the w-m, w-m. Call me slow ...

I'm not a one box or two box man - just looking for whichever way is up. The Planet 2000 has some 'analogue' qualities that made me spill for it in the first place and I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I suppose I'm looking for the increased 'air' that I can get with vinyl.

So the decision is play with the Planet or start planning a replacement. If I play, is there anyone out there who can do the mods?

Steve
PS: Sorry about the separate thread on this. I tried (and failed) to delete it after you posted back on this thread.

Steve

 

Steve, clocking will give you more of the same, IE increase the player intrinsic qualities, also more dynamics and detail retrivial, I feel If air is what you are after, then the BB op-amps are the kiddies for you
Cap changes can help on the decoupling areas around the dac chips, Blackgates or Oscons or the stunning Auri-caps (try them in your speakers Steve, solen rubbish only other I would consider 'M' caps .
Have a serperate PSu for anaolgue and digital circuits, damping, maybe A townsend sieimic sink or one of those vertex AQ platforms.
Decent mains is very important and has a big effect on the overall sound, also maybe an upsampling dac/player or maybe an upsampler between the planet/dac that will lift and open out the sound damn well, decent cables both analogue and digital.
If you would like to know how far redbook can go, PM me. cheers WM

 

Planet's ok, but as WM says clocking has got to be the first step. Compared to the Planet, the Jupiter integrated player was always a disappointment to me for the money.

Equally here with a Jupiter cdp and the older Jupiter transport only, the tranny stomped all over the cdp as a transport for the DAC 20. So different in fact they could have been from different manufacturers. Makes me think that all the Rega models should be judged on their individual merits.

Once again the sound of the Jupiters cdp tranpsort (in the integrated player) seemed to set the scene for it's sound as an integrated player, which wasn't that hot. It was the older Jupiter transport for me or nothing I'm afraid. Sticking the "Clock 4 and Never connected" Teac VRDS-T1 back on blew them both into the weeds though, but the Jupiter transport seemed a good candidate for clocking as it did all the fundamentals right.

Not sure how this applies to your Planet Steve, just thought I'd relay it. Basically if you like it now, then clocking is only likely to improve it. As for a replacement for the Planet, that does more of the same only better.... well the Jupiter cdp isn't it and I can't think of anything else either. Probably time to take the lid off the Planet.

Cheers

 

Having heard the exact same LP played on 3 seperate occassions but all on Orbe/SME V/Iso HR combos with different cartridges each time, I'd say that with a Koetsu, you should be getting the quietest backgrounds possible from vinyl. Unless the LPs, are very badly mistreated examples... But from my experience, the crackle and pop factor was the least with the Koetsu Red Signature I heard in one system.

Surface noise and rumble, again assuming the record isn't badly warped, is as others have already said usually down to alignment and set-up. We can discount this, as you've already had the deck professionally set-up... So therefore, it could well be that the Koetsu needs an overhaul.

On my system, on CD vs vinyl, the bass is also somewhat slightly less precise from vinyl from a harmonic point of view, but it has more purposeful weight and slam with the T/T, especially with a well pressed 45rpm disc. Bass weight is somewhat easier to get from vinyl IME, especially when you have a lot of early/mid 80's CDs which are as most will agree very weedy and thin sounding whereas the vinyl equivalent is usually much more enjoyable. For me, it's not a matter of which format is best, but which pressing/recording (CD or vinyl) I can get hold of which offers the best access to the music without distraction.

For pre-80's music and full analogue recorded albums, vinyl replay is still the one to beat for me. The appeal of vinyl IMO is akin to the appeal of analgoue open reel tape. For those that use to own such a domestic machine, or for those that have been to a recording studio and heard analgoue master tapes played back, you will understand that digital by comparison just sounds "chopped up"... is that what some call "flow"?

 

I Think that's the bottom line Henry, enjoyment and I do certainly enjoy mine, but I do also understand the Vinyl point of view. wm

 

What Henry said.

If the noise floor really is "massively" higher either your vinyl's knackered or the cart is on its last legs. A good cart generally gives vanishingly low surface noise, even on non-pristine vinyl.

You still got a bargain, but maybe not as big a bargain as you thought...

-- Ian

 

Why not speak to Len Gregory (cartridge man) about getting it re-tipped (or another proffesional)

Never done it myself, but all Ive read says its masses cheaper than a new cart, but theres a risk of the cart sounding different at the end.

A re-build or a re-tip shouldnt be more than a couple of hundred...again, all based on experience of friends, and that which Ive read.

Chris

 

I think sadly Ian you may be right Still researching the Onyx, it appears the one I have, built by Sugano Senior is still a highly prized catch due to it's rarity, even when in need of a rebuild.

Now the cost of an official rebuild is $2800, for that, you effectively get a new Onyx Platinum Signature using the old stone body (new rrp is $7500). Alternatively, I have been pointed towards the Expert Stylus Company in Surrey. They will rebuild for considerably less, and apparently the results are excellent. Any of you guys know of this?

Option three is to sell the original on E Bay, they typically go for $800 or so. I could then buy a new cart of somewhat lower status, after all, this is getting very expensive
Now I know Henry holds the Koetsu in high regard. Would you recommend staying with it (the bass is gorgeous!) or maybe recommend an alternative at sensible money?

I now have a cunning plan to integrate a vinyl system into the main one, that gives the option of bypassing the digital kit for listening to older vocal recordings etc.


This would comprise the Michell Setup going into a small valve integrated which would feed a pair of Response 1SC. The integrated could then be fed into the main system via the tape out sockets, allowing the TT to be played through the JBL/satellite setup via the TacT for when I want the control for more modern recordings and 12" singles. It also would not compromise the digital replay, which will be the most used I suspect.

The additional kit I would require would be the speakers (which can be got for about 600 quid, and an integrated amp. The Audio research I have here at the moment is beautiful, but I think it's really out of my price range, having already spent a lot So any suggestions for a good used integrated to match the Proacs

 

Merlin,

I've got a WAD Kit88 integrated amp I put together, and upgraded with black gates etc. (which resides upstairs atm) It soulds fab with the Proacs. How about one of their kits? great sounds for not a lot of dosh.

Come over and have a listen if you want.

Robbo