Got me a record player!

I am, sort of, teasing you...

Of course I had to do a lot of upgrading to reach the level I was aiming for, even more so because some of the technology in the AV world, surround music included, is brand new, still evolving, thats how I know we dont listen to music while we are testing hifi... :JPS:

There is no product out there that is not a compromise when it comes to music reproduction, period, see your TT, tubes, etc, experience...

It is just that we all have different priorities, some, more than others, just cannot resist tweaking with equipment... :micro:

 

I'm really going to open this one up One of the best sounds I've heard was with valve amps yes you heard it hear first, not the best, but close Manley Steelheads and a Well Tempered TT, quite surperb, even did a back to back with the Bellcanto and the Shearwaters, 50/50 split, the manley's couldn't do the slam and bass control but they were more natural and fluidic, but pretty fooking good all the same, would I swop?, well no, same went for the Gentleman who came round for a listen after, really surprised him, but he wouldn't swop either, so can you get best of both, hummm I'm getting close, maybe at the end of the year but, until either party has heard a GOOD example of the other format, pure conjecture is all that remains. WM

 

Yes Antonio, but I am comparing hifi components, not av gear. You see, you don't get the chance to listen to MUSIC when testing AV gear, you do when trying out 2 channel I fail to see how your experience of adding THX EX and more and more channels of amplification has anything to do with the appreciation of music

WM interesting comments. Once again the TT is vastly more expensive than the CD chain, requires more maintenence, and fails to come out the clear winner. And everyone says vinyl is cheap

I think it's basically a case of both having their own qualities, and the individual choosing which set of compromises he prefers. Certainly, as an all round winner, I find I am gravitating towards the hybrid vinyl front end feeding digital electronics. It certainly does have the edge over red book in just about all departments, save absolute tautness of bass. Taking away the DSP and switching amp however, for me is a step too far from a reproduction point of view, although the qualities of flow and naturalness are enhanced by the valves, at the unfortunate expense of huge amounts of precision.

I reckon if 10 people came round and listened to the options here at the moment, 60% would go for the valve route, 40% for the TacT route. The fact that it is not clearcut, does tend to suggest that, certainly at the upper end of the market, CD represents better value.:duck:

 

I think its nice this post is so open and honest with no flaming going on!

Merlin - I think you have a fair point about the no necessarily cheap price of used vinyl.... second hand record shops are £3 -£14 for vinyl, netsounds is £4 and above..

My recent experiences at FOPP have given me a much larger number of albums to buy at a fiver each on CD (brand new) than I get on vinyl.

As you've also said, its a pain in the ass to turn it over every 30 minutes.

For me , its the fluidity which takes me away from the ... somewhat artificial method of listening to music through a hifi.. and its really special, with the right record on etc.

I wouldnt be without a CDP though, its too damn conveniant .. and can sound pretty good (again with the right CD..)

Merlin - I see you're in Bucks like me. Have you been to FOPP in Leamington Spa? - Id reccomend it, you'll get a stack of cheap music if you havent been. Its a nice town too.

Interestingly,
when I compared a Belcanto (evo 2) to a Conrad Johnson pwr amp at a shop - the Belcanto won hands down on the poly harvey/thom yorke track I played. With the poor recording of the strokes however, the CJ made the record more enjoyable... that in essence is the trade off of SS/Valve for me... its the very colouration that a valve amp gives the warmth and slight midband boost that makes the most of any recording. To hear the best recorded music sound the best it possibly can - Id go with the best of solid state - like a Belcanto (which is the best solid stater Ive heard yet).... but to get the best out of any recording, Id go with a valve amp... all just IMHO of course.

I think Ive made the same compromise with my valve DAC. A loss of detail retrieval, a loss of precision and accuracy, but now I can listen to more CD's than ever before without leaving the couch to do something else.. horses for courses of course.

Apart from a different hifi in every room, I dont think you can win.... better start saving!

 

I bet I have more pleasure watching Norah Jones on DVD than you listening to any LP...

 

Looking at her is definitely preferable to listening to her...

-- Ian

 

Damn true, nod off music that.

 

I will give you that Ella Fitzgerald will probably be better on LP... :JPS:

But Madona, hmmm...

 

Madonna?

I think it will take more than a change of format to make madge palatable!

(for these ears)

Bad singing over songs she didnt write is just posh karaoke for me.

 

.

 

Hi

It's good that Merlin has liked the turntable setup he has picked up. As for a replacement cartridge, this could be a hard one. I had a Koetsu Black in the late 80's which was very nice. I have heard a few Koetsus in my time & they do have a certain quality that a lot of cartridges will find hard to match.

As for a replacement, I would look at the Ortofon range. Look at the Kontrapunkt A & B & the Ortofon Rohmann. These will offer very tracking & good alround ability. I do think you should be able to borrow an Ortofon easier than most. I borrowed an Ortofon Jubilee for nearly a month before I bought one. I also borrowed a Transfiguration Sprit & a Dynavector XX-2.

It is interesting how some people prefer vinyl to cd & vice versa. Both mediums have strengths & weakness. I have been a big fan of vinyl since I was a kid, from the days of listening & watching my parents Alba radiogram with it's autochanger. I do find that vinyl does have a flow to it. This is something that Cd didn't have for a very long time IMO. In the last 6 years or so, I have thought that the sound of CD has stepped up in quality. You can have & run a system that contains both cd & records players.

I agree with what has been said in that a lot of vinyl faults will reduce (or disappear) with a good or top notch turntable. It is good to see that Merlin is giving it a good go. Well done. It also doesn't surprise me that Big Tone also has heard a vinyl system he likes. Next he'll be buying a Well Tempered turntable to play that one piece of vinyl he owns .

Out of interest Merlin, what have you got your deck sitting on? One of those Lack table with or without a Siesmic sink?

As for the price of vinyl, the downside is that new stuff can be dear. I have seen prices of £20 upwards for some new releases. The trick is to shop around. In Fopp, for example, you can pick new releases for £10. Also Fopp has a number of albums at £10 or less. These are usually single albums but you can get double albums at £10 to £15. I have picked up double albums for less than a £10 at Fopp (as low as £3). I do agree that Fopp has a good selection of Cds for £5 or less. This is one reasion why I have invested in Chord Dac64.


The best value is going to come from 2nd hand buying. Most from a few pences to £10. I done quite well in recent years with this having bought a few record collections in the last few years. If you take care, you can pick up a lot of records of your choice in very good condition to mint condition. Alot depends on what sort of music & albums you are after as some originals can be worth a lot & go for big money.


I agree that cd has good ease of use but that doesn't bother me as much as some people. What you can do is play a piece of vinyl then switch to cd while you change the record. On a good day I can change a record very quickly.

The main thing is to enjoy your music what ever source or sources you use.

SCIDB

 

Also with the TT's the style of music I feel is important, I love the older rock, and the early 70's stuff does sound a seriously better on Vinyl for sure, no quibe hear, also as has been said before, and I do agree whole heartly with this pre 85-86 digital is piss poor in my book, and you may find this odd, but I can tell the production year of the album with a year or 2 by the 'mixed sound' especialy late 80's early 90's stuff.
This morning I had a few hours quiet time (kids at their mums) and I dug out some old Purple/Zep/Doors albums, just to see if any differenices could heard since the previous listening session.
First up Live In Japan Disc one Osaka, been about 5 months since this one got a spin (and many, many mods ago) whoooaaa, yes, man this is a different take on it, very almost surreal presentation, no shite, crap, or distractions, just total blackiness except for the music, very odd, just serious solid image and bigish depth (remember 70's orginal), eerie almost, but before the earthy squad go arhhh all roundie what sprang forth from the stage was pure raw/dynamic energy, with pin point timing and ultra scotsman type bass, just powering along, with seemsly speed and poise?, how can a digital get this different, better no, different Yes, flowing with consumate ease, but yet it shouldn't be this good, no you knew it was a 70's analogue tape, even though it was remastered in 92, just nothing but RAW dynamic energy, never hard or grating, and all those little indosyncratic bits on the disc came threw, the mist timed starts, the intro count downs all there in amazing clarity.
Time for some thing else, Blag dog, Rock 'n' Roll battle of evermore, now sounded Fresh & Alive, full of vitality, John Bonham powering his way through R & R, Plant vocals haunting on Evermore. This is worth digging deeper
The Doors, Crystal ship, Riders on the storm, this is good stuff for a CDP, quite an ear opener.
Never gunna replace a TT for this, but man what an alternitve.
Maybe for Chris a Valve Pre, on the fron end of a Belcanto, may just give a very good trade off, towards the sonic goals you look for. WM

 

Me? god no, Ive spent enough on this hobby. Its stopping me doing other things, and thats just daft really. Got to draw a line in the proverbial sand on this insane hifi spending.

Im going to tweak what Ive got... an orbe platter ... maybe a better power supply for the TT.... a few component changes inside the valve kit... better interconnects ... (still using £10 ones! hehe), and a better transport with a few mods..

Thats my long term game plan over 2003/2004. I make that £600-£800, and that'll be it, Im going to stop while the stoppings good..

Unless I win the lottery, you never know!

Maybe I should give Merlin his thread back? ooops

t:

 

Hell no Chris

It's great to see us all actually sharing experiences rather than trying the one upmanship game, so I'm all in favour of freeform threads like this.

Now today I managed to pick up a Simply Vinyl copy of Leftism for comparison purposes (in the sale at HMV ) I've been comparing this version with the CD, which I have to say, is one of the best mastered CD's in my collection.

For comparison, both sources were fed through the same TacT setup, using the a/d in the RCS2.2X converting to 192/24. Now I know this is a big no no for most but do bear with me here, I had already established that this route was superior all told to the analogue/valve option in my room. Plus, even those non plussed by the TacT setup would admit that it is very revealing when asked to be

Well the main difference between the two mediums in this comparison was resolution. The vinyl copy shows greater bass weight, at the cost of a rather loose and tubby character. Not bad at all, and in many ways more enjoyable. But the bass was out of character with the rest of the frequency range, and the leading edges were softened in comparison with the CD.

Sounds bad Well no actually, because the resolution on the vinyl was clearly superior (native 192/24 as opposed to 192/24 upsampled red book). The delineation of individual parts of the mix was noticably better, leading to a more engaging presentation. Although the noise floor is higher, the perception of individual dynamic swings is greater, making me notice more of what is going on, if only slightly. This is simply better resolution, no question. The TacT exposes the limitations of CD, and shows what is possible with more depth to the recording. Bodes well for DVDA and SACD on the TacT

So why am I now listening to the CD version Well, the vinyl has to be totally optimal to better it, it does sound better in the middle of the side, and the CD allows me to listen to the whole opus whilst posting this

SCIDB, It is actually sitting on the FE Pagode rack, no sinks involved. I will try to borrow an Ortofon to see what result I can get. Right now, the pros are possibly outweighed by the cons for me, but I am determined to give this a fair crack of the whip, so will try another cart before making my final judgement.

Funny you should say that Chris. I was brought up in the very same town, cut my teeth dj ing believe it or not for the then famous Unicorn Disco, whose residency was the Buttery Bar, frequented by many of the Two Tone crew, and featured on the front cover of noe of the Specials albums. We had trouble with the rockers like WM back then too

Yep Tone, one of my favourite demos of the TacT gear, SOTW at the max, you could almost be there. Those old CD's from analogue masters were great, in fact one of my best sounding CD's is a CDR from vinyl played back on the top TNT deck But yep, digital done well is very very good these days, and if, big if, high rez takes off, we should be able to have our cake and eat it

 

Hmm, doesn't mirror my own experiences at all... The retail value of my CD playing equipment is worth a multiple or two more than my vinyl spinning hardware.

The last time I threw any money at the T/T was 4 years ago when I first purchased the whole lot (bar a cartridge re-tip just over a year ago which was a consequence of an accident caused by my own carelessness ) - have not felt the need to change anything - but better isolation (will improve the bass taughtness even more), a better phono stage, better arm lead cable are on the cards for next year. In contrast, the CD front-end is always having money thrown at it and being fetled with... who said CD was just press play?

Both the Orbe T/T and the top end SME arms have a proven track record when it deviating and drifting once they have been set-up - "they don't" - all that's required is an annual once over of the settings once you're happy with the final settings. BTW, SME recommend that the silicon fluid used in the mini damping trough at the rear of the arm be changed/replaced on an annual basis - the fluid should be transparent but it goes cloudy and becomes more viscous if left for a long time which indicates a necessity for change.

Whether to re-tip/rebuild the cart, that's a very difficult call, even more so with the Koetsu... I was very happy with the re-tip on my VDH, but then the re-tip was done by the person who'd personally hand-built the cart in the first place . Was it as good as the original, well, difficult to say if it would have been indistinguishable from the brand new original item but the re-tipped version was certainly sounding better than when it had left me. Obviously 3 years of prior use and then going straight over to a completely brand new and hence pristine clean stylus has a lot to answer for...

 

With my (admittedly limited so far) experience of the Ortofon Rohmann, I would thoroughly recommend it. I'm absolutely loving the vinyl thing right now. Top cartridge.

Sadly, my dissatisfaction with my cd player seems to be inversely proportional to my satisfaction with my record deck. It feels like cdp tweaking time is fast approaching.

Steve

 

Hi Merlin

I have Leftfields Rhythm and Stealth on Vinyl.

I find the bass overblown on that too.

Im wondering if the blame comes from a decision at the recording studio to make the vinyl recording more bassy for nightclub DJ'ing?

Thats my theory anyway!

 

Mike, I didn't even play SOTW, just Highway star and Strange Kind a Woman, reminds me of a...... another story
Also had Misplaced childhood on as well (crap cd) the bass on larvendar was so tight and composed with real attack on the snares and momentum, Fish's vocals just taking the song to it's crisendo's.
I have an orginal U2 Rattle and Hum, BB king & U2 on 'Love comes to Town' so good.
All this has come about from more Power mods, humm I wonder how far this can go? WM

 

U2 did a version of 'Unchained Melody'. Does anyone know which album it is on? Steve

 

Interesting Henry, what have you been doing with the dCS kit I was speaking with a dealer the other day who was considering dropping it He felt, as I must admit I do, that the price/performance ratio was difficult to justify now, there having been so many advances over the past couple of years. I still think it's one of the best dacs out there, as did he, but it is now possible to get similar results for a lot less. By comparison, the TT would retail for the same as a very good digital rig, and the carts only last about 1500 hours, about a year of listening for me. Not knocking it, just that so many people say vinyl's cheaper and I cannot see that at the upper end.