Musing following some cable posts...

Stop grinding on.

 

well, I have a vdh first ultimate cable that is very good and compared to the on e i bought most recently, it is still good, but not as good as the new one. The vdh is a nice sound, but the new ic is much more natural and makes the music sound like music. ive done the blind test thingy....got a friend to switch cables and all that...but I like to know which is in... if it was cheap and shabby, Im sure I wouldnt enjoy it anywhere near as much, but its the same argument for all hifi surely...a cd players sound can only be subjective, if you argue that they all sound different. who is to say one sounds better....clearly some are better than others, more detailed etc and price is often a good indicator of quality isnt it? and therefore the same is true of cables. some are better than others...theres no way that they all sound the same...thats an idiotic perspective...yes, you can tell differences and some appeal to me but not you....Ive compared a 35 quid to my current IC and the cheaper ic sounds woeful...I mean really poor....the vocals are scratchy and its too bright and its annoying...now, my new cable is smooth and open and tuneful...it cost more and is better! now someone may try to fib, by saying that they prefer the scratchy one, cause its brighter, but it is a difference in sound reproduction that is evident....Lets be honest...if you won a mystery prize and you had to choose from 2 products...one, a super dooper IC worth £3000 and a red and black placcy one worth 30 p....how many of you cables haters would choose the cheap one? and why not? because you all know that whilst the differences may not be massive, or in some cases youre hearing is shot from hours of listening with your ears up to the speaker to test for polarity and to see if your tweeter is shagged, then the top and bottom is this...the more expensive one would sound better and no bugger would choose the placcy one! Please dont tell me you you would cause that would be an untruth....so if they are all the same, why choose the more pricey one???

 

I suppose a good old fashioned double abx, curtain over my head, blow out the candle, wear a balaclava, blind test would have to be conducted before making your choice...

 

Late to the table.

Various reasons after experimenting..

1. They look rubbish. spend a few hundred quid on a piece of hardware and do I want it held together with some ASDA string? No.
I have nice dust caps on my bike. The look better that the plastic black ones and bring everything else up a level.

2. I build cables as part of my job. Kind of ties in with my 1st point but I like something to be well make and taken time to build. Something that looks like a quality job. I don't expect a piece of wire to transform my listening experience. I expect it to be of quality and do the job.

I think I read it in Richer Sounds "You don't drink Champagne from a plastic cup"

 

I would choose the £3000 one so I could sell it, obviously!

Hmm.. I have heard, on a number of occasions, a system that uses £12,000 speaker cables and to be honest it didn't sound better than I remembered it from the time before, when it had some speaker cables costing (only!) a few hundred. So if money is the indicator of quality…!

 

Sun Ra used such cables to hold his remarkably fine hat in place. He is The Man.

Tony.

 

Neither do I, but it is the usual excuse, not worth the money...

 

Who doesnt want to listen now...

By the way, I stopped buying expensive cables a few years ago, when I found different ways to "fix" the sound, but I still use good quality cables... :nigel:

 

So what’s wrong with that as a argument? It’s firmly where I sit. I’ve got a decent and well balanced system and I currently have three 'name brand' interconnects; Spectral MI-330, Linn Analogue and some cheapo Gotham stuff from eBay. I have a few I’ve made up myself too. Anyone in the know here will realise this is a huge disparity of price; the Spectral retails for about 500 quid, the Linn for about £50 and the Gotham a tenner. Yes, they do all sound very subtly different, and yes the Spectral is the best, but being honest there is no way on this earth I’d pay the extra over the others (I only paid a fifth of it’s new cost so am not disappointed). I firmly agree with what Ian said earlier in that the money would be far better spent elsewhere, e.g. cartridge or speakers.

Tony.

 

That is no problem at all, I think the same, but saying that all cables sound the same, means one is stupid, or deaf...

 

I am sorry for raking over old coals here, but I cannot see what is wrong here.
The dealers that I have used in the past, which isnt many to be honest, dont give cash discounts, but "accessories" to the value of something like 10%.
I dont believe the nonesense about cables but when I have purchased I take the cables and sell them on ebay.
We live in a capitalist society and these items have a value, to some people at least, so selling them has no bearing on ones point of view.

 

I detest this attitude from the religious.

People who believe in god have some excuse since it is impossible to prove it one way or another. People who believe in cables have no excuse but nobody will make the effort to prove it. I think your faith is weaker than you imagine.

Paul

 

£80K for a properly conducted ABX test and some equipment to measure cable performance? I don't believe you.

Well, I assume you believe that your products sound better/different to freebie cables? If you don't believe that, I apologise (although, in that case, I wonder why you bother to make them), otherwise, all of my points stand. You sell cables, so testing whether your cables make any difference seems like an entirely reasonable proposition.

Really? Where? Can't say I've noticed. Tenson posted a good suggestion to test your cables earlier in this thread, is that what you meant? No, thought not.

Actually, no, I have had a reasoned discussion with you and others which has roamed over plenty of different territory. I'm not the one repeating mantras.

OK, point me to one cable merchant that has done either and published verifiable results. Just one, where are these tests to be found? I'd love to see them.

I've never said any such thing, could you point out where I have? All I've said is that anyone selling products for which they are making unlikely claims ought to be able to establish that those claims hold some water. You never have, and no other cable merchant ever has. I think this is illustrative.

I haven't. Look at the first post in this thread. Pete started this thread, with an entirely fanciful claim that nobody who is a cable sceptic uses freebie cables. So, this is not a thread that has been hijacked by cable sceptics, it's a thread started by Pete asking for replies from cable sceptics, and replies from cable sceptics is exactly what he got. My view (and I've stated it often enough, your reading comprehension is nearly as bad as melorib's), is that people should buy exactly what they like, for whatever reason, and ignore what anyone else thinks. In other words, I have a different attitude towards those who sell snake oil than to those who buy it.

It is. My view is that cables make no difference, not that cables make no difference to me. In the event that anyone ever demonstrates that cables do make a difference, using elementary and verifiable testing protocols, then I'll be the first to change my mind, and state, even if I personally can't hear a difference, that cables make a difference.

Every time someone disagrees with you you start questioning their motives, insinuating they have an agenda, or claim they are being offensive or insulting towards you, I've called you on this more than once in the last few weeks. You're a thoroughly dishonest arguer, you almost never directly address any point made to you, but perpetually obfuscate and hide behind a screen of self-righteous pretend offence. I'm not "insinuating my ideals" on anyone, I'm responding to Pete's question that opened the thread. It's known as "having a discussion". Now, either address points that are made to you or be quiet, but stop the endless procrastination and smoke-screening, it's tiresome.

We had this discussion weeks ago, you're talking nonsense. Go back and re-read the other thread where we covered use of words like "faith" or "delusion" (I've never, in any of these threads, described anyone as deluded, btw, and I wish you'd stop suggesting that I have). Your rhetoric is getting increasingly flatulent and repetitive.

When I was debating with you a couple of weeks ago I had no idea you were a cable salesman, it's only in the last week that I discovered this and had a look at your website. I'm afraid I have very little time for you as a result of knowing you sell this guff. If that offends you, I couldn't give a toss. I've had enough of mystics peddling highly-priced voodoo and refusing to put any of their claims to any kind of reasonable test. Put up or shut up.

-- Ian

 

I don't joke about this, that's the figure I was given. It was a bit more sophistcated than a microphone in front of a speaker that's for sure.

They do and they have been. What I find difficult is peoples attitudes.

Take the blinkers off

I haven't seen any different.

Take the blinkers off and look.

The accusation wasn't made at you specifically. I make and have made no claims at all about my cables in any of these discussions.

Rubbish. Your name is in the frame any time the word "cables" is mentioned.

Self defeating logic; to buy, someone has to sell and vice versa.

Have I taken any money off you at all? No, so why are you nominating yourself and the self-appointed champion avenger against all cable sellers. You are one sick individual my old fruit, you just don't realise you are. If you don't like it, ignore it, that's the adult thing to do. I hate celery, but I don't go firebombing farms that grow it, or shops that sell it.

It's no longer an opinion when you are on a crusade against anyone who sells a cable - by your own admission earlier.

I do try hard to answer every question but it seems to get either ignored and misconstrued, then what I say is used as cherry picking out of context for another squabble and some more points scoring.

BY THE WAY, talking about avoidance, where was the answer to the placebo and expectation facts I asked you to back up with proof? Hypocrite.

 

No, for perhaps the first time in your life, back up one of your claims. You said:

Show me one example of one cable company publishing independently verifiable test results. Go on, break the habit of a lifetime and provide some supporting documentation for one of your claims. If you can't do so, retract it. This is an entirely reasonable request. If you're not prepared to substantiate a claim, you have no business making it.

There you go again, insinuating my motives rather than addressing the points I raise. I don't hate you, and you don't "argue" back. You obfuscate, you mislead, you change the subject, you claim insult or offence when someone asks you perfectly reasonable questions, you slip and slide and do anything you possibly can to not provide a coherent argument or address direct questions. You spout and preen, you never reason or explain. You're a waste of time.

-- Ian

 

When you learn a bit about about other people, then I might take the time to do all you ask, but right now no thanks because for me it would be much easier to teach a dog to eat it's dinner with chopsticks than have a sensible amicable debate with you. Take care

 

Ian reading your comments I think you have had a negative impact on this thread so much so I am wondering why I am bothering with ZeroGain at all. I joined here to learn more by speaking to people informed on music and Hifi you will see by my thread count I am new.
At the moment in fact the name Zero gain seems quite apt.
Please make a positive contribution. currently I have you down as a complete tosser, but please prove me wrong? It seems you have strong opinions and are not as open minded as you say - You have suggested I spend money on better speakers, frankly without knowing my system I cannot see how you are in a position to judge, BTW I have quad ELS57's (Two pairs actually)and a 9 watt amplifier what speakers should I audition next?

Others - I am a serious Hifi/music addict just past 50 years old. I bought my first record deck(Goldring) when I was 14 from a bloke that I delivered papers I am still interested and have lots of experience would like to contact others who have an interest - I dont care what equipment they have, just that they want to learn more as I do . please tell me that this thread is not normal.

Close to giving up on zerogain is it a waste of time. Andy

 

Er...So do I assume that once again there will be no ABX test? If that's the case can I suggest that one of the mods locks the thread because it seems to have swallowed it's own tail.

 

Woah, steady on there, you can't call me a "tosser" and then come over all offended party. I made a suggestion that in my experience spending the money on speakers gives better results than spending it on cables, I didn't abuse you or imply you were stupid, or make any offensive remarks about you in any way. You may choose to disagree with me, but all I have done in this thread is present arguments and ask those who disagree with me to provide some evidence for their claims. If in your universe that makes me a "tosser", the problem is entirely yours.

I will remind you that the first insult directed at anyone on this thread was made by you, when you made a comment implying I was deaf. I reacted in turn with a joke about how appropriate it was to describe Sun Ra as an "aviator". You, on the other hand, choose to get on your high horse despite me taking no pot-shots at you. So, I respond with humour, you respond with insult, and yet I'm apparently the bad guy here.

Why is it that cable believers are so quick to take offense and yet also so quick to dish out insults?

-- Ian