Musing following some cable posts...

I don't think I've read a thread where people have got so wound up before. Seems a bit silly TBH.

I think that cables make a difference to a point. That point being what you are prepared to pay. The 3000 quid valve amp above being a good example. I am sure that the cable makes an impact on the sound of my system. I am also prepared to pay up to a point in order to get a cable that sounds better in my system.

I believe differently on this subject to Sideshowbob (for example) but that doesn't mean that either:

a. I am an ignoramus.

or

b. He is totally wrong.

Is it not possible to be a bit less hysterical about this? I think if everyone was in the same room together it would me a much calmer discussion. There can be a tendency to get a bit carried away whith the safety net of anonimity and physical seperation conferred by Internet Forums.

I think that quantitatively examining the transmission properties of different cables would be of great advantage. I don't know what you would measure beyond the usual capacitance, conductivity etc, or what you could use as a reference because all the test kit would also use,,, cables.

However; surely there can be some way to ascertain if different cables have discernably different electrical and RF rejection capabilities and hence how this effects (or doesn't effect) the sound?

The onus will never be on the industry as long as people like Roy Gregory sing the praises of the latest 10,000 pound Nordost Cable Loom; and other (fools?) are prepared to buy it. The psuedo- scientific rubbish most of these companies spout is also a bit of an embarrasment.

As a prelude to scientific testing I would ask anyone who is firmly against the view that they make any difference to try a 2.99p Maplins IC against one of Pete's Ag/Au. I would be very surprised if you don't notice the difference. Whether or not you find it worthwhile is another matter but I am sure that I heard a difference when I got one and you would too.

You don't have to be dogmatic either way but at the end of the day (sorry) it doesn't really matter much if you are, because it is all personal choice.

As a final note in response to the comment about forums above. I have found the advice and opinions on this forum particularly useful, very few people have vested interests IMHO. Lots of valid ideas and honest opinions about kit outside the mainstream. Also, like most people I'll take the thoughts and advice I like the sound of and leave the bits I don't.

Apologies for the length of post

 

Regarding cables, you are religious, the one who believes all cables sound the same, I only believe in my ears... :zzzz:

 

It is posted every other post, listen...

The people that like music use their ears to judge equipment, you use your eyes, mission impossible to agree...

 

just for the record.

i have never ever said, written or implied cables do not have a sound or do not make a difference.

i suggest that cables are and should be used in the correct way , following well proven science.

i am of the opinion that cables have specific jobs and that this is well understood.

what i am suggesting is that some of the boutique cables do not perform as well as correctly designed and built cables.

for instance i mainly use studio star quad for my incons and heavy gauge stranded cables for long-ish speaker cables solely because of my gear and that its very cheap.

i have also used dnm cables but they only work over short - ish lengths and with certain electronics where they give a smooth detailed sound but can lose power ,grip and dynamics in larger rooms and at higher levels.

what reason would a cable cost £200 per metre for ?

cables have 3 important parameters . electrical , conductor and dia lectric quality and its mechanical integrity.

everything starts with these and its been understood for years and years.

cable design in the pro arena has not really changed much since the 60's.

 

lets just say I am a hifi dealer and need to make few bob to prop up the falling margins and lost custom to the internet - I buy in three or four different cables from exotic places (wickes, internet metal suppliers and all points between) and connect them up to my system - for a number of well known reasons they might have a different affect on the sound - I pick one that works best then multiply the price by say 100 for my time and effort in choosing - hey presto a new cable is born. Don't forget to call it something snazzy like (say) "sun Ra" and then advertise

I won't be doing anything wrong by saying it makes a difference, has been tested by experts, transforms the sound etc - even if I stretch the truth we are firmly in subjective territory here so no worries.

Some arse comes along and calls my cables overpriced wankywire then this might impact on my sales - no hang on, others of the believing kind are coming to my defence (new customers) - is it any wonder I want to prolong the arguement and certainly don't want to get involved in qualititive testing of my homespun theories and products?

Now what do we all think about Mains cables - total bollox IMHO

 

The subject would take a massive leap forward if only the cynics would shut up for just one minute, arrest their childish bullying (because that's what it is) and be open minded enough to accept there MIGHT be a difference between cables, before the discussion can move on to WHY there might be a difference. That to me is a logical progression, but no it's asking far too much.

A genuine sceptic is a doubter and he will say "OK, show me" whereas a cynic will say "Impossible", not "Maybe", not "Possibly" as those words are simply not in their vocabulary, so look back throughout this thread and many other cable threads for these words and they are absent, hence no progress. Give a cynic a choice between saying "I'm wrong" and a knife to cut their own arm off and they will take the knife each time. It's this same mentality that stifles these debates time after time, not the reticence of anyone with the knowledge to impart it. Add to it then the absurd and unfounded accusations of placebo, expectation, delusion, voodoo, withcraft, fairy/ghost sightings, religions, beliefs, snake oil, smoke and mirrors, all used as undermining and underhand weaponry, then little wonder the threads become heavily tainted and they rapidly turn into heated arguments not rational debate.

Look back through this thread again and you will recognise all the hallmarks of dogma and intransigence there. I'm accused of all sorts, yet I have claimed nothing beyond what I was prepared to put to the test for an amount of money. I'm accused of avoiding issues, but I'm not responsible for the misdemeanors of the entire cable industry only mine, so if you have personal issues over that take it up with them, not me. I ask for someone to put scientific values on placebo and expectation and it's ignored, yet that is at the very core of what the discussion was about and what a refreshing change it would have been for a cynic to put up some real evidence for scrutiny.

The core subject of cables actually vanished form this thread a long time ago, it has been more about attitudes and egos I'm afraid

I'll leave you all to it now.

 

you still have not addressed the subject ....


all you keep repeating is how no one is listening to you and trying to bully you , but you have not once ever produced any proof by scientific means that your cables are better than a .n. .y other
brand / etc / home spun cable.


you are without doubt a charlataan.

so basically you do not understand electronics i take it !!!???

 

Pardon the selective quote but as far as I can see Ian has done nothing but asked you, Zanash and others believers to provide evidence to back up your claims and he has done so without resorting to insults. In return he has been called a tosser, deaf and stupid. So where is the "bullying"?

I understand both sides of the arguments and frankly don't care to participate any more. I'd just ask everyone here to read the AUP again and abide by them. Personal insults are against the AUP and really only show up shortcomings in the person throwing the insults. So please let's all act like grown ups.

 

This simply isn't true. As an example, Mogami list 18 mic cables, which have very different LCRs, and these are typical of those used for audio I/Cs: http://www.mogamicable.com/Bulk/micr_cables/low_perfor/low_perf.htm

 

You are unable to separate belief from truth hence I am deaf or stupid for forming a different opinion. This is the indicator of the zealot.

If you could demonstrate that cables affect the sound (not your state of mind, but actually affect the sound) then I'd be interested. Because my mind is open. I suggest you investigate 'PCABX' (use Google) and find out what you can actually hear. It's a bit boring but enlightening and worth the effort.

Paul

 

I dont have to demonstrate anything to you, I am a consumer...

To me I demonstrate hearing, I like, I can afford, it stays, otherwise it goes, regardless of technical explanations...

I dont assume things dont work without testing...

 

SSB and others have asked you to do exactly this. So show us. Using ABX methodology as requested. I'm interested. Really.

 

I have repeatedly asked you to do precisely that, in fact, that is all I have asked of you. You have been given many opportunities to show me, and everybody else, that you can substantiate even a single one of the claims you have made in this thread. I would have no argument with you or any other cable merchant, if they actually did "show me". If you "showed me", I'd be the first to publicly state you were right. But you don't "show", you backslide, obfuscate and throw childish tantrums. Your own posts betray you. You've been exposed as a bluffer, like all the other snake oil salesmen.

-- Ian

 

That is very close to being libellous.

Look, I have never ONCE mentioned any of my cables, I have never ONCE made any claims about my cables on this forum. Go back and read it again. When I do, then you can demand and not before.

That's it, I really cannot stay here any longer with such open hostility and lack of respect.

 

I would really love to see a cable manufacturer stand up their claims in court. But since you won't even answer a simple direct question on an internet forum, the idea that you would ever seriously consider having to do so in front of a judge is hilarious, frankly.

But you DO believe your cables make a difference, otherwise you wouldn't make them, so it's entirely legitimate for people to ask you about them. Stop backsliding.

-- Ian

 

I guess it proves a lot...there was another manufacturer on here to took a hissy fit when someone questioned there products too...

speaks volumes in mjy book...

 

So if I disagree with your choice that's OK? I'm not actually deaf or stupid?

Paul

 

Of course, we have different tastes and experience...

But if you say all cables sound the same, then we are back to square one... :grrr:

 

So what exactly do you want?

I'm only here to discuss a PRINCIPLE and that is that cables do have differences in sound and the evidence is already there if you care to look. As an example, would anybody here argue that silver is 8% more conductive than copper, hence there could be a sonic difference between them? Ah no, the cynics say, the levels must be matched before comaprison is made - how absurd. I have asked anyone to come up with scientific evidence that placebo and expectation are entirely applicable in these debates, yet nobody has. Play ball then if you want something from me, then be prepared to have reciprocal questions asked back and provide the answers.

You keep harping on about blind ABX testing and I have stated quite clearly why I have no confidence in them in another thread which yet again you have conveniently forgotten about. Ah yes you say, that's because they don't provide the answers that I am looking for. Twaddle. I said quite categorically in another thread that if the results were conclusive that what I was hearing was in fact false I would be delighted and pack in selling cables tomorrow. I mean that most sincerely by the way. I already have a set of written blind ABX test results here that makes interesting reading.

OK then, so there is maybe a question mark over the ABX blind test so then what do we have? I have said how many times now that the electronic test methods that would be used are in my opinion not sufficient to identify and isolate what is the quantative/qualitative reasons for the phenomema reported by those that hear differences. You tell me what test methods you propose to identify "less bass boom", "wider and higher soundstage" "more image depth", "a cleaner midrange", "sweeter treble", "better focus", "improved seperation" etc., etc., etc.? If you think a microphone stuck in front of a speaker is the answer then think again, if you think sticking a scope probe on the speaker terminals is the answer, then think again because I have tried it. All of those traits are subjective assessments anyway by the human hearing perception system which is far more complex than a microphone or scope probe. In any event, say someone was ingenious enough to formulate a sophisticated measurement to record all these objectively, would it in any way change the fact that if you cannot hear these now, would you then be able to hear them following the publication of those objective results?

I asked you to come down and listen to what I have here - a perfectly open, honest and uncomplicated statement. This was in response to your assertion that £35 worth of cables is a better option than £900+ worth of cables. Yes? So why aren't you banging on my door this morning clutching your £35 worth of commercial cables champing at the bit in anticipation at taking away that cheque for £1k because according to you it was like taking candy from a baby because I have automatically lost the challenge? Away you disappear into your smokescreen instead, creating all sorts of irrelevant side issues, creating fresh arguments away from the subject in hand, passing off someone else's test suggestion as a valid one which I didn't stipulate as part of the challenge anyway and you have the gall to accuse me of obfuscation?

Why don't I do the sensible thing and hold my hands up to say you are entirely right and I have been a bad boy for misleading over 6,000 customers in 5 years by selling them worthless junk that I forced them to buy against their will. No, never mind that they have all deluded themselves by my powerful magic that can stretch across the globe, across different cultures, to render them down to mindless zombies susceptible to my powerful snake oil remedy. I'm so damn good at this, it can even pass the blind tests that these poor misguided fools conduct in the privacy of their own homes because they have read on the internet somewhere that it's impossible for any cable to sound different, yet those blind tests are saying otherwise. Oh dear, now what do they do? No problem, they have a safety net underneath them that the evil villain who took their money away by stealth and coercion is also prepared to give a full refund including the postage costs. Bugger, can't jail him for that.

I'll tell you what the actual difference is between you and I my friend, it is that I am accountable for what I say and do, not to you, but to the people I serve and the laws I have to obey. Whatever I say is under constant scrutiny, but what about you? There is no risk whatsoever to what you say hence you say it, but what if one day someone one day turned the tables on you and held you to account for your advice? What if the poster that accepted without question your advice that £35 worth of cables is a better sonic investment than £900+ worth of cables, you were found to be wrong and the summons landed on your doormat?

Why did I bother typing that? Why do I waste my time trying to inject some sense here?

 

For starters, I would like you to substantiate this one claim:

We'll leave aside all the other unsupported claims you've made for now, let's just start with the simple one.

A direct answer, no evasion or backsliding. It's a very simple question, after all. Show me one cable company that can demonstrate using independently verified test protocols that their products do what their marketing literature claims.

-- Ian