Of significant interest .....

[Stereo Mic]

thats rich !

definitely pot call the kettle

Come on Zanash. You've never asked a straight question, let alone answered one.

Michael,

It's good to see you around - we were only saying you were probably well and truly cured whilst remembering the old days recently. I can't remember if Thorsten was around when you were running the place, but it's worth remembering he never admits to being in the wrong - even when his position is totally discredited. I lose the will to live every time he avoids the question on this thread with pseudo scientific smokescreens.

Cooky,

The truth is if you can see, you are not relying only on your ears. I suspect if more people relied solely on their lugholes, this type of "debate" would be highly one sided.

 

[michaelab]

Michael,

It's good to see you around - we were only saying you were probably well and truly cured whilst remembering the old days recently.

I am well and truly cured. I've sold all my kit and replaced it with a Harmon Kardon HS200 one-box DVD/CDP/AV Receiver which comes with its own 2 sat + sub speaker system (hooked up with the bell wire cables that came in the box of course). It more than satisfies all my musical and movie watching needs and would put a fair few 'proper' hifi systems to shame

I can't remember if Thorsten was around when you were running the place, but it's worth remembering he never admits to being in the wrong - even when his position is totally discredited.

Yes, unfortunately I remember

every time he avoids the question on this thread with pseudo scientific smokescreens

Spot on!

Michael.

 

[penance]

Hi Michael
Good to see you around again

 

[julian2002]

so without trawling through all the horrible rhetoric and waffle in the thread has anyone answered the basic question at the heart of the matter.
given 2 cables with identical lcr values one made of material a (call it wankium) and one of material b (and this one bullonium) in a blind abx test can a difference be heard. anyone tried it? results on the net / linkys anyone? - not that i care just have a morbid urge to get a stick and poke the ants nest....

 

[Stereo Mic]

Julian,

That's a straightforward question a number of us have been asking Herr Loerch since page one. Sadly he seems highly reluctant to answer with a similar degree of clarity.

The answer is of course no - AFAIK no controlled test has ever demonstrated audible differences between electrically similar cables. It would really help the cable manufacturers' credibility if there had been. Makes you wonder why they don't organise some tests themselves doesn't it?

 

[johnhunt]

what is this thread about?

 

[penance]

Temporal discontinuities

 

[mosfet]

Anyone want to try my wankbull-alloy® cables?

Can you see what I've done? I've cunningly combined wankium with bullonioum. Feckin genius.

 

[Stereo Mic]

Hats off to anyone prepared to try wanking a bull in the interests of audio research.

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

given 2 cables with identical lcr values one made of material a (call it wankium) and one of material b (and this one bullonium) in a blind abx test can a difference be heard.

Using the standard approach to ABX testing as implemented and promoted by the ABX Mafia and most vocally Arny Kruegrer and Tom Nousaine, which involve single individuals and a large number of "trials" in a single session the results have been that it was not possible to disguish differences between amplifiers, preamplifiers, CD-Players and of course cables.

If you subscribe to the comforting, if inaccurate notion that "everything except loudspeakers sounds the same" you may simply take their tests as evidence that this position is true. Otherwise there is enough evidence (formal, scientific and published in peer reviewed publications) to suggest their methodes may not be able to make any reliable comment about the presence or absence of audible differences other than extremely large ones.

As no-one is funding large scale blind listening tests for cables (the only large scale listening tests for anything are for perceptual coding for lossy audio compression, AFAIK, with smaller ones done for speakers by Harman) you are unlikely to have at point in the near future to have any formal, scientific results.

Here is an idea, you asked the question, why not seek some funding to make these tests. To get an idea of a well implemented blind listening tests I recommend to read this bit:

http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/index2.html

This illustrates a well designed and set up DB Test that can be used to draw conclusions with any reliability, be they negative or positive.

Kind regards Thorsten

 

[Stereo Mic]

So to cut to the chase that'll be a "NO".

Nothing. Zip. Odd given the wealth of some of the cable companies I'm sure you would agree.

 

[zanash]

IMO it boils down to this ....

those's that can't are trying to persuade those that can that there imagining things.

strikes me as rather funny when you consider that a professed cable sceptic would go to the serious expence of investing in Isolda cables [ by his own admission], but posts that all cables sound the same ?

 

[Stereo Mic]

Ithose's that can't are trying to persuade those that can that there imagining things.

Of course you'd say that. You sell the things at £200 a pop.

You have yet to prove you can hear the differences you claim. Until you do, you're position is highly questionable.

 

[DavidF]

Now, now you two.

Of course you'd say that. You sell the things at £200 a pop.

Thats not entirely fair Mike...not all of them

my silver and gold came in at 30-40...can't remember now

You have yet to prove you can hear the differences you claim. Until you do, you're position is highly questionable.

I respect your scientific approach to the subject, Mike.

All to the good.

The several ways of skinning a cat though.

AS I write I am evaulating a set of speaker cables (£30 ish so I am told) as an a potential improvement over my the old twin and earth I have been using.

So, I can eihter send Pete the cables back.....or the dosh.

 

[Stereo Mic]

David,

My argument is that Zanash sells cables and has not proven that even he can hear differences between electrically similar examples.

His claim that he can is therefore questionable, as are the claims he makes for his products. Still no harm in trying - the law provides for a 10 day money back guarantee so you can buy cables from anywhere and try them. Just see if you can get someone else to swap them around whilst they are hidden from your view. That way your ears will make the decision for you.

 

[lordsummit]

those's that can't are trying to persuade those that can that there imagining things.

It would also seem the obverse is true.

There are obviously differences between cables, but I'm sure those differences are because something is different, LCR would appear to be the answer. I'm also certain at the minute that if the LCR was the same but different materials were used, they would sound similar, that's assuming identical terminations etc. The fact remains however that different materials will produce different LCR results, hence they sound slightly different.

Can someone please correct me if I'm wrong. If this is the case, why is it such a contentious issue? Yes there are differences in cables, yes it can be seen by measuring. Is it really worth 7 pages of polemnic?

 

[DavidF]

Mike

David,

My argument is that Zanash sells cables and has not proven that even he can hear differences between electrically similar examples.

I know.

But whether pete can hear the diffeence is to me in a sense not the main point.

Its whether I can hear the difference.

His claim that he can is therefore questionable, as are the claims he makes for his products.

its possible

Still no harm in trying - the law provides for a 10 day money back guarantee so you can buy cables from anywhere and try them.

An interesting fact I didn't know.....

......but the main reason why I deal with Pete hs always offered good value for money, most certainly better than dealing with the high street retailers who are out to make a buck.

.

Just see if you can get someone else to swap them around whilst they are hidden from your view. That way your ears will make the decision for you.

Yes, I couldn't agree with you more, it would be interesting

Living on my own......not easy.

I have these speaker cables to evaulate currently.

I just have to be as objective as possible

 

[DavidF]

. Is it really worth 7 pages of polemnic?

7 pages ....thats nothing...

I mailed my uncle (who got me into this in the first place many years ago) 6 months ago after I ahd conem back to it.

He said, although he is out of it now, he was amused all the same arguements were being debated ......he was into it during the early 70s/80s. (LP12/A+R a60/ Mission 770s IIRC)

 

[Stereo Mic]

Can someone please correct me if I'm wrong. If this is the case, why is it such a contentious issue? Yes there are differences in cables, yes it can be seen by measuring. Is it really worth 7 pages of polemnic?

The problem is that cables with even quite different LCR values can measure identically in the audible frequency band so just because they measure slightly differently does not mean they will sound in any way different to listeners. Gross distortions of LCR will of course be audible, as I demonstrated once at a bakeoff with some 2 guage copper speaker cables and welded on spades.

The variable is the impedence characteristics of the electronics, and if these have a significant sonic affect, then it is utterly impossible to know what any cable will do in any application, making a mockery of salesmen's claims.

 

[sq225917]

and thats the truth of the matter.

reviewing cablesis the most pointless task in the world, unless everyone has identical setups, the reviews and entirely meaningless.

you need to hear them for yourself.

i don't think Peter ever claimed his cables sounded different to those with 'identical' LCR, just that they sound different to 'some' cables and some people might prefer the sound.


here's his new tagline, "they might sound different and you might prefer it more than more expensive brand name cables......."