Principles

[Richard Dunn]

Agreed. Current loudspeakers/systems by their very nature strongly adhere to that statement. The trick is to make each enjoyable and involving.

I fully believe it would be possible to create a system that will play one track and in only one room that could suspend disbelief. You've got a fixed set of variables to work around, if only it was all so simple.

This has actually already been done by Von Schweikert to an audience of journalists, industry insiders and enthusiast who AB'ed a live performance which was recorded and then played back through a pair of VR11 loudspeakers in the very same room. Apparently it was a tough call.

It only worked on one track, which happened to be recorded in the exact same room as the loudspeakers themselves.

The answer is not based on technical accuracy, though that is part of it. It is based on principles and I keep asking for contributors to put their principles that are necessary to create product to play music, does anyone actually understand what I am asking?

OK I will start the ball rolling:-

1 Simplicity - reason, everything in the way of the signal (has to pass through) will corrupt the ability to produce the essense i.e. music.

Any other volunteers

Richard

 

[Dik Dolan]

Zero nfb. The few amps I have heard that are built "feedbackless" seem to have something that I find hard to put into words........ soul, feeling, emotion,life.... bah I dunno, they just make music more enjoyable, for me.
Same with vinyl, but that might be the ritual of actually setting up the record to play that adds more connection to the sounds as well.

 

[Stereo Mic]

But I do have a system I enjoy greatly.

Congratulations. I have a music collection I enjoy greatly.

I suspect there is a very great difference between the two.

 

[murray johnson]

Get rid of any permanent magnets in the system. This includes those in mc cartridges or speaker drivers. Use electromagnets wound on permendur pole pieces instead and feed with dc supplies.

We are talking about 'anything goes' suggestions aren't we?

 

[Richard Dunn]

We are talking about 'anything goes' suggestions aren't we?

Yup!!

 

[Richard Dunn]

Get rid of any permanent magnets in the system. This includes those in mc cartridges or speaker drivers. Use electromagnets wound on permendur pole pieces instead and feed with dc supplies.

How about accidentally induced magnets. Anything ferous within the field from case to steel wire terminations on resistors.

Richard

 

[murray johnson]

I agree with that. I wouldn't use magnetic resistors anywhere anyway. I'm not sure how we'd deal with the issue of transformers unless the whole set up was battery powered (and I'm not yet convinced that batteries are the answer anyway)

 

[Richard Dunn]

Zero nfb. The few amps I have heard that are built "feedbackless" seem to have something that I find hard to put into words........ soul, feeling, emotion,life.... bah I dunno, they just make music more enjoyable, for me.
Same with vinyl, but that might be the ritual of actually setting up the record to play that adds more connection to the sounds as well.

Good point, have you ever heard feed forward designs?

Both give phase anomolies.

Other problems involved in implementation. Large increase in harmonic distortion as there is no out of phase cancellation. Bigger problem with transistor amps as they tend to distort oddly where as valves tend to distort evenly.

So how about we say principle # 2 is Balance - the ability to weigh pro and con in musical terms.

Richard

 

[Richard Dunn]

I agree with that. I wouldn't use magnetic resistors anywhere anyway. I'm not sure how we'd deal with the issue of transformers unless the whole set up was battery powered (and I'm not yet convinced that batteries are the answer anyway)

As it stands batteries have a too high impedance. A factor of 10 worse than even a relatively poor mains supply.

Richard

 

[anon_bb]

Science is verifable - art is not. They ask different types of questions. Unfortunately people muddle up the two and end up stuffing art in scientific gaps.

 

[RobHolt]

Principle

As many seperate PSUs with the lowest noise, lowest impedance regulation that the budget will allow for any given circuit.

Start with a poor PSU are the best circuits in the world will not perform.

Far too many otherwise good products string everthing off a barely adequate transformer and a few 3 pin regs. Not good enough.

I'll throw in star grounding as well as it is related.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Zero nfb. The few amps I have heard that are built "feedbackless" seem to have something that I find hard to put into words........ soul, feeling, emotion,life.... bah I dunno, they just make music more enjoyable, for me.

Actually really there is no such thing, it is a bit of a con. There is length size and quantity. No nfb designs mean no *overall* negative feed back. No nfb at all would be a bit of a dissaster. The way around it is localised nfb around each gain stage and using the minimum you can get away with. Op amp chip technology started this.

Richard

 

[RobHolt]

Actually really there is no such thing, it is a bit of a con. There is length size and quantity. No nfb designs mean no *overall* negative feed back. No nfb at all would be a bit of a dissaster. The way around it is localised nfb around each gain stage and using the minimum you can get away with. Op amp chip technology started this.

Richard

Absolutely.
I recall reading past claims from at leat two manufacturers (no names - thread rules) that their solid state amps were zero feedback yet produced <0.1% distortion. Of course, as you say, local feedback was used.

 

[Richard Dunn]

As many seperate PSUs with the lowest noise, lowest impedance regulation that the budget will allow for any given circuit.

Start with a poor PSU are the best circuits in the world will not perform.

Far too many otherwise good products string everthing off a barely adequate transformer and a few 3 pin regs. Not good enough.

I'll throw in star grounding as well as it is related.

I don't understand you, they are not related in the slightest.

What is the advantage of a so called star earth system relative to a ground plain?

Also this post is at odds with your claim to champion frame transformers. At a given VA any frame transformer has approx 30% higher impedance than an equivalent toroid. It also presents an asymetric field with very high intensity nodes, where as a toroid presents a symetric field intensity with small nodes at the terminations. This means that fast current delivery in relationship to transients is relatively poor on a frame, but I suppose OK for simple valve amps which are poorly regulated and slow anyway so the efffect doesn't show up.

I am, by the way not dissing valve amps before the idiots start again. It is all swings and roundabout, and what you lose in one direction you often gain (if you know what you are doing) in another.

Richard

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

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[RobHolt]

What is the advantage of a so called star earth system relative to a ground plain?

Semantics.

Also this post is at odds with your claim to champion frame transformers. At a given VA any frame transformer has approx 30% higher impedance than an equivalent toroid. It also presents an asymetric field with very high intensity nodes, where as a toroid presents a symetric field intensity with small nodes at the terminations. This means that fast current delivery in relationship to transients is relatively poor on a frame, but I suppose OK for simple valve amps which are poorly regulated and slow anyway so the efffect doesn't show up.

You misunderstand me. I don't champion the frame transformer, certainly not in the sense that I believe it to be the best solution in all cases. My point re toroids was in relation to DC and noise on the mains. VA for VA, toroids contain less iron and saturate earlier, leading to distortion and noise. If you are worried about the increased impedance of the toroid - up the VA rating a little.
As you say, swings and roundabouts.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

You misunderstand me. I don't champion the frame transformer, certainly not in the sense that I believe it to be the best solution in all cases. My point re toroids was in relation to DC and noise on the mains. VA for VA, toroids contain less iron and saturate earlier, leading to distortion and noise. If you are worried about the increased impedance of the toroid - up the VA rating a little.
As you say, swings and roundabouts.

Would you advocate using oversized torroids with respect to VA over that which would appear to be recommended for the application its intended for?

 

[Richard Dunn]

Semantics.

Not in the slightest. Your claim is that using a star eathing system is one of the principles, I am trying to establish why you think so.

You misunderstand me. I don't champion the frame transformer, certainly not in the sense that I believe it to be the best solution in all cases. My point re toroids was in relation to DC and noise on the mains. VA for VA, toroids contain less iron and saturate earlier, leading to distortion and noise. If you are worried about the increased impedance of the toroid - up the VA rating a little.
As you say, swings and roundabouts.

This is nonsense, upping the VA rating will do no such thing, you obviously have little understanding of transformers. The only reason that valve amp manufacturers use frames is that it is very difficult and expensive to wind a toroid to the voltages required for valve work. It is all to do with winding, if you wind a doughnut you have to pass through the hole!!

There was to my knowledge one valve amp in the early 90's that used toroids, I forget the name. I know of at least one person here who should know it. It had like little upside down saucepans over the transformers. There are no advantages to frames apart from price and sometimes space considerations as it is easier to fit a box in a box than a doughnut in a box. What DC? what noise on the mains?

Richard

 

[Richard Dunn]

My point re toroids was in relation to DC and noise on the mains. VA for VA, toroids contain less iron and saturate earlier, leading to distortion and noise.

Just think for one moment where are the plates relative to the coil, because of its ineficiency a frame needs more iron to contain the field. No toriod manufacturer worth his salt will not put not enough iron in the core to create a possible saturation situation and it would be easy just to add more plates to the core. The two system propogate the field differently. Only a badly designed or incorrectly used transformer of either design should saturate.

Richard

 

[RobHolt]

At a given VA any frame transformer has approx 30% higher impedance than an equivalent toroid.

<sigh>


You said it not me Richard.

What DC? what noise on the mains?

If you ask such a daft question I will simply advise that you do a little research and come back when you receive enlightenment.

Richard, you have made several accusations over recent days of people playing word games and having closed minds.
I suggest that you are merely describing your own failing and trying to reflect them on to others, in the vain hope that it will disguise the fact that you wouldn't know an open discussion even if your life depended on it.

There is clearly little point attempting to discuss anything with you.

Goodbye.