[Review] Getting animated

[Joe]

It's very important to keep all doors, windows and curtains closed when trying on a new pair of trousers.

I'm not sure why the windows need to be closed, as long as the curtains are drawn.

 

[sideshowbob]

That's because you don't understand the intricacies of trying on trousers. You should speak to a shopkeeper about it, he'll tell you why.

-- Ian

 

[Tenson]

That's because you don't understand the intricacies of trying on trousers. You should speak to a shopkeeper about it, he'll tell you why.

-- Ian

:lol:

 

[larkrise]

That's because you don't understand the intricacies of trying on trousers. You should speak to a shopkeeper about it, he'll tell you why.

-- Ian

Slightly off topic - but (ahem) one of our friends used to be in The Rolling Stones and he has significant difficulty in trying on his trousers, for this reason he hasn't been round in a couple of years. Infact we now affectionately call him Mr Trousers.

 

[sideshowbob]

Was it Brian Jones? Not surprising he had trouble trying on new trousers, it's not easy to do that at the bottom of a swimming pool.

He seems to be having some trouser trouble in this picture:

-- Ian

 

[Effem]

I can't believe I'm reading some of this.

I have always and still do find great difficulty in analyisng the motives behind some people's actions and thought processes over hi-fi. It is a hobby at the end of the day, the same as cameras, golf, stamp collecting and a whole host of other pastimes. Someone on a camera forum buys a new lens and fellow posters go "yippee, good for you" or someone buys a golf club made from a new material and everyone posts words like "gosh, I'm impressed" and such-like, but on a hi-fi forum it's negativity from beginning to end and the sad part is that it's the same small handful of people that turn it into a misery pit where only their opinions dominate and any genuine hobbyist's perceptions actually matter very little. Why can't you form your own forum and squabble amongst yourselves?

The little silver box with an LED on top of it is in reality only a side issue now. It wouldn't matter if it was a silver box, a power cord, a CD transport, or a fly swatter being evaluated, it would still be dismissed with the same unyeilding rhetoric seen countless times before and the majority of that being entirely irrelevant.

At most this thread SHOULD have been only two pages long; the rest has been a deadly cocktail of childish playground squabbling, naivety, ignorance, semantics, some bullying, much bruised egos, misquoting, tunnel vision and the inate need to subdue inferiority complexes by subjugating someone else. Go kick the dustbin if you feel that way.

This is how it should have gone:-

"I tried this device and I heard an effect"

"Did you, that's interesting"

"Holy heck, it costs HOW much?"

"I don't personally see how it can work. I have tried using my electronics knowledge but I cannot find an objective explanation"

"Perhaps this device is using a new technology?"

"I don't think so. Any one know what's inside it?"

"It's sealed up and the manufacturer isn't revealing anything either"

"Well my perceptions say it is doing something, but can't quite figure out what though"

"Has anyone else tried/heard this device?"

"I did and heard no difference!"

"Fair enough. A sample of two isn't enough though"

"Well give us a decent sample so we can at least get a statistical measurement if nothing else"

"OK, so we end up with 30 for and 2 against, what do we do then?"

"That shows it merits further investigation. Any one work in a lab or have access to one to run some tests on it?"

"I do. Can I have it for a few days and let you all know what I can about it"

"What if you cannot find what is causing this effect, or you find it's nothing more than a box with an LED in it and it's a con?"

"Well if it's con you can bet your sweet a** I'll be letting as many people possible know - good job we have forums for this - so they don't get fleeced. But let's not prejudice the outcome of the tests or jump any fences before we come to them shall we?"


There we are, wasn't so bad was it? No name calling or insults and a light hearted positive note to the thread

 

[dehavillandrfc]

I can't believe I'm reading some of this.

I have always and still do find great difficulty in analyisng the motives behind some people's actions and thought processes over hi-fi. It is a hobby at the end of the day, the same as cameras, golf, stamp collecting and a whole host of other pastimes. Someone on a camera forum buys a new lens and fellow posters go "yippee, good for you" or someone buys a golf club made from a new material and everyone posts words like "gosh, I'm impressed" and such-like, but on a hi-fi forum it's negativity from beginning to end and the sad part is that it's the same small handful of people that turn it into a misery pit where only their opinions dominate and any genuine hobbyist's perceptions actually matter very little. Why can't you form your own forum and squabble amongst yourselves?

The little silver box with an LED on top of it is in reality only a side issue now. It wouldn't matter if it was a silver box, a power cord, a CD transport, or a fly swatter being evaluated, it would still be dismissed with the same unyeilding rhetoric seen countless times before and the majority of that being entirely irrelevant.

At most this thread SHOULD have been only two pages long; the rest has been a deadly cocktail of childish playground squabbling, naivety, ignorance, semantics, some bullying, much bruised egos, misquoting, tunnel vision and the inate need to subdue inferiority complexes by subjugating someone else. Go kick the dustbin if you feel that way.

This is how it should have gone:-

"I tried this device and I heard an effect"

"Did you, that's interesting"

"Holy heck, it costs HOW much?"

"I don't personally see how it can work. I have tried using my electronics knowledge but I cannot find an objective explanation"

"Perhaps this device is using a new technology?"

"I don't think so. Any one know what's inside it?"

"It's sealed up and the manufacturer isn't revealing anything either"

"Well my perceptions say it is doing something, but can't quite figure out what though"

"Has anyone else tried/heard this device?"

"I did and heard no difference!"

"Fair enough. A sample of two isn't enough though"

"Well give us a decent sample so we can at least get a statistical measurement if nothing else"

"OK, so we end up with 30 for and 2 against, what do we do then?"

"That shows it merits further investigation. Any one work in a lab or have access to one to run some tests on it?"

"I do. Can I have it for a few days and let you all know what I can about it"

"What if you cannot find what is causing this effect, or you find it's nothing more than a box with an LED in it and it's a con?"

"Well if it's con you can bet your sweet a** I'll be letting as many people possible know - good job we have forums for this - so they don't get fleeced. But let's not prejudice the outcome of the tests or jump any fences before we come to them shall we?"


There we are, wasn't so bad was it? No name calling or insults and a light hearted positive note to the thread

Well said - but history shows you are expecting too much...

 

[larkrise]

Well said Frank - btw did you know that cables can make a difference?

I still owe you an e mail - it will arrive. . . .

 

[Joe]

"That shows it merits further investigation. Any one work in a lab or have access to one to run some tests on it?"

"I do. Can I have it for a few days and let you all know what I can about it"

"What if you cannot find what is causing this effect, or you find it's nothing more than a box with an LED in it and it's a con?"

"Well if it's con you can bet your sweet a** I'll be letting as many people possible know - good job we have forums for this - so they don't get fleeced. But let's not prejudice the outcome of the tests or jump any fences before we come to them shall we?"


There we are, wasn't so bad was it? No name calling or insults and a light hearted positive note to the thread

Yebbut the point is that this is a borrowed unit, so no tests can be done other than listening to the thing. [Well, I suppose someone could do an A/B recording of music with and without the LED box, but I rather suspect that the effect would not be recordable.]

 

[sideshowbob]

Also, if every thread followed effem's rules, there'd be no point having a forum at all, since the path of all possible discussions would already be prescribed.

Mind you, I'm not sure there is much point to a hi-fi forum so maybe it's not a bad idea.

-- Ian

 

[Joe]

Also, if every thread followed effem's rules, there'd be no point having a forum at all, since the path of all possible discussions would already be prescribed.

Mind you, I'm not sure there is much point to a hi-fi forum so maybe it's not a bad idea.

The only purpose of a hifi forum is to enable one to veer wildly off-topic, and say that 'Saxophone Colossus' is a great album (even if it does have a bit of a drum solo on it).

 

[Effem]

Also, if every thread followed effem's rules, there'd be no point having a forum at all, since the path of all possible discussions would already be prescribed.

Mind you, I'm not sure there is much point to a hi-fi forum so maybe it's not a bad idea.

-- Ian

I am in no way defending this little box, I'm not supporting Zanash's views, nor Tones, nor anybody else's. I personally think at this moment in time it's an overpriced packet of loony toons and with the right horseplops it can be sold to the gullible - usually americans

BUT, I can maintain an impartiality until A) I get to hear for myself what it is/isn't doing and decide accordingly B) A rational explanantion from the manufacturer that it contains known scientific principles for it's operation C) Sufficient emprical data sourced from others that there is indeed a phenomena worth investigating further.

What I read in these contentious debates is a matter of attitudes, not evidence and facts to chew over.

Until that time comes, I can withold my feelings in the matter and remain a true sceptic - a doubter. I can do this without resorting to accusing anyone of hallucinating, being deaf, or ridiculing them.

 

[Effem]

Well said Frank - btw did you know that cables can make a difference?

I still owe you an e mail - it will arrive. . . .

I thought it was still at the stonemason's getting carved into a tablet of stone LOL :MILD:

 

[Effem]

Also, if every thread followed effem's rules, there'd be no point having a forum at all, since the path of all possible discussions would already be prescribed.

Mind you, I'm not sure there is much point to a hi-fi forum so maybe it's not a bad idea.

-- Ian

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with good wholesome lively debate. It's only a hobby after all and a highly subjective one at that where one man's meat is indeed another man's midrange suckout.

What derails that healty debate is when negative words like "Faith", "Delusion" "Deafness", or "Snake Oil" enter the discussions which is not only untrue it is prejudicial and insulting to the individuals it's aimed at when it's totally unnecessary.

Fr'instance, I hate celery so much I retch even when I smell it, yet I would never deny anyone else finding it a tasty nutritious vegetable, nor would I call them names just because they enjoy it and I don't. Hi-fi should be no different until we get to subjects like this little silver box thingy. By all means be a healthy sceptic, but don't resort to comments below the belt just because your mindset is already prejudiced against it. When proven that it is a box of horseplops with a blue light on top I'll be standing right next to you shouting about it

 

[zanash]

effem I'll second that too...

just to remind some people if they forget ......this is the review section... not a debate section but a review

sideshowbob....
but thats exactly what you and your cronies had done ...you have made so that "the path of all possible discussions would already be prescribed."

with the knee jerk " no it can't work because ......." argument.

Then we have tones telling us this that and the other ....and he can't/has not read/didn't understand the instructions that clearly state if the unit is not functioning you must do ...this ! And you have to keep it between this..... and that...... and not to exceed this ....

If you get say one of those multi use heat pads ....you click the actuator use the warmth .....then you don't toss it away you follow the instructions that say place in hot water till opaque ...

this unit is no different .....

joe....... good point but if you used a mic to make the recording of both with and without that should work ......shame I don't have the gear.

You know its really odd I keep offering to bring it round to people[within reason] ...but I never get an invite from the doubters.... now why would that be ? It was the same with the cd lathe ....I've a pile of duplicate discs one lathed one not ....did I get anyone of the doubters asking for one .......errrr you guess it not one nil nix .....

 

[sideshowbob]

What derails that healty debate is when negative words like "Faith", "Delusion" "Deafness", or "Snake Oil" enter the discussions which is not only untrue it is prejudicial and insulting to the individuals it's aimed at when it's totally unnecessary.

"Faith" isn't an insult. Neither is "delusion". The only person who routinely gets accused of deafness in these threads is Tones, and he has a sense of humour, so it doesn't seem to bother him. "Snake oil" is an entirely reasonable description of a lot of the nonsense products available in the hi-fi market, the ones where the vendors spout pseudo-scientific doggerel to justify selling items of dubious effect. Frankly, I don't care how offended those people get.

What you seem to be saying is you want discussions where nobody says what they really mean. Sounds desperately dull to me. Besides which, anyone who gets offended by what someone else thinks about Shakti Stones, or CD lathes, or Animators, or whatever, is lacking much of a sense of perspective.

-- Ian

 

[Joe]

The trouble is that hifi chat tends to be an entirely subjective thing, in that no one person can convince another person that component or accessory A is better than component or accessory B. Add to the mix a varied blend of fundamentalist objectivists ('if it can't be measured, it isn't there') and fundamentalist subjectivists (if I can hear a difference, and you can't, you're deaf').

Personally, I'm somewhere between the two extremes; I have zero understanding of science, so I'm not likely to think a device is inherently unlikely to work, but I know from personal experience that an 'upgrade' that sounds like a dramatic improvement to the sound of a system one day can sound completely mediocre the next, and that audio nervosa is nature's way of telling you leave the hifi alone for a few days and/or drink some wine.

 

[Effem]

"Faith" isn't an insult. Neither is "delusion". The only person who routinely gets accused of deafness in these threads is Tones, and he has a sense of humour, so it doesn't seem to bother him. "Snake oil" is an entirely reasonable description of a lot of the nonsense products available in the hi-fi market, the ones where the vendors spout pseudo-scientific doggerel to justify selling items of dubious effect. Frankly, I don't care how offended those people get.

What you seem to be saying is you want discussions where nobody says what they really mean. Sounds desperately dull to me. Besides which, anyone who gets offended by what someone else thinks about Shakti Stones, or CD lathes, or Animators, or whatever, is lacking much of a sense of perspective.

-- Ian

So what gives YOU the right to be a keyboard hero at someone else's expense to massage your ego - because that's exactly what you are doing by using language like "faith" and "delusional". The person you are insulting with those words has a perception of what they heard which is far more valid as tangible evidence than your biased prejudice when you have perceived nothing yourself, which is utterly worthless in the debate. Had you actually done so and heard nothing yourself then you have every right to say "My perception was different to yours" which is equally valid evidence in the argument.

Now if you can get your mind around that simple concept the rest is easier still because valid points of view are still exchanged but nobody gets their toes trodden on, making a happier more positive thinking forum. Nes pas?

You want colourful language I'm sure I can muster plenty

 

[Arrowhead]

Chaps.... just remember...... it's a good man that knows his own father.

Graham.

 

[sideshowbob]

So what gives YOU the right to be a keyboard hero at someone else's expense to massage your ego - because that's exactly what you are doing by using language like "faith" and "delusional".

You're doing that thing you were doing earlier - attacking my (imagined) motives rather than addressing a real argument. You don't know anything about my motives. Please stop the half-arsed psychologising.

I'm not religious, but I have a great deal of respect for the intellectual contributions made to science and art over the centuries by people who have religious faith. "Faith" is not an insult, it's merely a description of a belief held (as sincerely as you like) without verifiable supporting evidence. As for "delusion", if I think someone is imagining something, or someone thinks I'm imagining something, "delusion" is precisely the right description. (BTW, I haven't called anyone delusional in this thread, but addressing what I've actually said doesn't seem to be your strong point.)

The person you are insulting with those words has a perception of what they heard which is far more valid as tangible evidence than your biased prejudice when you have perceived nothing yourself, which is utterly worthless in the debate.

Nice of you to speak for other people and feel offence on their behalf.

BTW, "biased prejudice" is a tautology. As for my opinion being "utterly worthless", it's worth at least the same as yours, or anyone else's. Perhaps I should be offended by your insult? Or perhaps I agree with Joe, that it's all a matter of opinion and there's no need to get annoyed in the slightest.

Now if you can get your mind around that simple concept the rest is easier still because valid points of view are still exchanged but nobody gets their toes trodden on, making a happier more positive thinking forum.

You're not a Scientologist by any chance are you? This all sounds worryingly happy-clappy. If it's all the same to you, I'd rather not follow your posting rules but instead work out how to say what I want to say all by myself.

-- Ian