So Thorsten has broken cover ...

[anon_bb]

Hifi eqpt does know anything about "music" - it processes information in a signal. S&M is peddling voodoo.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Shin, Superb effort you have made there. The finish looks first class and rather similar to Wilson's piano surface. I wonder how much different they sound compared to regular ATC? Is it a subtle tweek or a major change in sound that's blindingly obvious?

If I ever get enough space in the future I'd certainly like to try a bit of DIY high end tweekery. Tenson, how's your project coming along?

Hi

My experience is limited regarding ATC loudspeaker system, with only the SCM50 30th Anniversary(demoed) and the SCM7(own these ones) that I've heard. The sound is different, I use a vastly different XO setup, cabinet and overall design. Really the only thing they share in common is the fact they have the same mid and bass drivers. But if you look at a popular driver such as the Seas Excel W22 8" bass driver, this is used in many commercial designs yet sounds different in each, its all down to implementation.

Just adding a notch filter in an XO can turn one speaker that sounds harsh or bloated into a completely different animal, and that's just one seemingly small change. With so many variables changed between my design and ATC's its easy to see why they'd sound dissimilar.

You ought to give the DIY thing a bash at somepoint. Start simple and you'll be surprised at what you can do and there's always plenty of help on hand when things go wrong. I'd also like to hear about Simons Manger/Eminance OB's, anymore work on these Simon?

 

[The Devil]

My experience is limited regarding ATC loudspeaker system...

Yet you feel qualified to comment on Active 50s, etc. Oh well.

I have lived with active 100s for four years. They exhibit no audible distortion. Three of my chums have bought active ATCs after hearing mine: 50s, 100s, and 150s. I've heard all three systems at length, the 50s in two different rooms. None of them exhibits audible distortion, and they all sound superb.

I've also had a shop demo of both active 50s, and 100s. They sounded mediocre, because of a poor source & setup, but there was no audible distortion. I bought my ATCs from an acquaintance who recommended them strongly, not because David Gilmour uses them. David Gilmour does use them, however, which is pretty remarkable given that he could afford any speakers he wished.

So please don't try telling me that ATCs have audible distortion, because I know that they don't.

 

[anon_bb]

Yes they do bub. Its just obscured by the other flaws in your system.

You used to say the linn was as close to perfect as possible for a tunrtable - with the "ninja mods" (essentially J at mana writing his name on the chassis after a glass or two) - using exactly the same arguments. Look how that ended up.

The ATC sound is distorted. You just like the distortion. All speakers distort - ATC are better than most in some ways but until you hear something better - as when you compared the sme to the hallowed linn ninja...

 

[The Devil]

The distortion is not audible. Not to me, not to my friends, and not to any recent visitors. Neither is it audible to any reasonable person. God knows why you persist with this line.

You haven't heard my system, yet you seem to know all about it. I've never heard distortion from any of the ATCs which I have listened to.

Can't say I've ever heard a pair of PMCs that I wouldn't want to set fire to rather than listen to. But that's just me.

 

[murray johnson]

I'm not sure I've read a funnier thread than this on ZG before. The idea of a hardcore PMC user and a similarly hardcore ATC user arguing over the relative merits (musically & otherwise) of their dreadful loudspeakers (just my opinion btw) is hilarious. Keep it up chaps!

On topic, I'm sorry Thorsten has gone. I wouldn't always agree with his views but I never found him offensive, often amusing and usually good humoured.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Yet you feel qualified to comment on Active 50s, etc. Oh well.

I know the drivers intimately though and this means how they should and shouldn't be used as well as what's optimum for them. Facts is facts, loudspeaker design is loudspeaker design and physics wasn't bent by ATC's implementation to miraculously avoid these problems.

I've also tried ATC's XO implementation... and passed.

I have lived with active 100s for four years. They exhibit no audible distortion. Three of my chums have bought active ATCs after hearing mine: 50s, 100s, and 150s. I've heard all three systems at length, the 50s in two different rooms. None of them exhibits audible distortion, and they all sound superb.

I've also had a shop demo of both active 50s, and 100s. They sounded mediocre, because of a poor source & setup, but there was no audible distortion. I bought my ATCs from an acquaintance who recommended them strongly, not because David Gilmour uses them. David Gilmour does use them, however, which is pretty remarkable given that he could afford any speakers he wished.

Nothing remarkable about it at all. He made a choice and that's it, its not recommendation or confimation that the speakers are 'remarkable'. We've already seen that the DEQX which I think sounds brilliant and measures close to perfect is said to be lacking, clearly there's elements of personal taste, setup and partenering equipment here the same goes for any choice made on equipment. One thing that can't be arguing against is measurements and data that confirm a speaker to be coloured, whether you like that or not is another matter or indeed if you even realise that what your listening is coloured but quoting big names users doesn't invalidate the measured results, which you seem to be trying to do.

The original program material should be as closely follow as possible, adding flavour(intended or not) may sound nice but its ultimately obvious and isn't in the ideal of what I consider an accurate system. The more accurate the system the more heavily you start to rely on good source material and when its good you realise that a system can simply sound real rather than an involving facsimile that some folks term 'musical'.

There's more to be had from the ATC drivers used in the SCM50, that's all I said. Nothing about ATC making poor speakers, why can't you just accept that?

So please don't try telling me that ATCs have audible distortion, because I know that they don't.

Even with facts and figures you still bury your head in the sand... oh well

Distortion is more than just harmonic's. There's many other kinds including IMD, doppler, phase, amplitude, cabinet resonances/colouration, diffraction etc. etc. Don't fixate on THD because its only a small part of the picture.

Some time ago I used to think the Mackie HR626 had low colouration/distortion... until I broadened my horizons. There's always something better that will redefine what we consider a benchmark, what you consider excellent today quickly becomes merely good or even average tommorow.

 

[The Devil]

Even with facts and figures you still bury your head in the sand... oh well

How do you know that your measurements are either accurate or reliable, or even relevant? You are the one burying your head in the sand, because your experience of using active ATCs is "limited" -- I would say "negligible".

You have your own little K9 project which you've invested thousands of hours of your free time in. No wonder you imagine that they are better than the real thing. As I said before - don't try the real thing, whatever else you do.

 

[mr cat]

my dads bugger than yours etc...

mods - you may as well close this now...

 

[The Devil]

You have nothing remotely constructive to add, as usual.

 

[KUB3]

Murray Johnson, do tells us which system you listen to...

 

[murray johnson]

nothing these chaps would like. valves & horns.

 

[KUB3]

The point is some people might find your choices less than appealing.

Hissy, slow, warm valves are not my cup of tea, but each to their own. (I'm not saying your system is, of course).

 

[Baudrillard]

nothing these chaps would like. TVC's, valves & horns.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

How do you know that your measurements are either accurate or reliable, or even relevant? You are the one burying your head in the sand, because your experience of using active ATCs is "limited" -- I would say "negligible".

You have your own little K9 project which you've invested thousands of hours of your free time in. No wonder you imagine that they are better than the real thing. As I said before - don't try the real thing, whatever else you do.

What an obnoxious little man.

You clearly haven't listened to or even considered a word I've typed. People like yourself add nothing, absolutely nothing to this forum, why do you come here? If this attitude of yours follows through into your real life persona then I'm really surprised you have any friends at all.

Undoubtedly your the most narrow minded and boring person I've ever met online or otherwise. Thorsten was 20x your intellectual equivalent, he could actually debate on a level that was interesting, you on the other hand don't read posts and instead just pick one of five different responses that you have ready to copy and paste when engaged(I use that word very lightly) in an argument involving a particular bit of kit you own.

I'm fully prepared to admit that my system has plenty of distortion elements and that these are audible. They're still a magnitude lower than the ATC stuff though.

Since you clearly dismiss anything other than you own opinion whilst blindling following any positive indicator that you can and simultaneously have a complete disinterest in understanding anything other than "what I own is opitome of a perfect implementation and to hell with anything to the contrary" then I really can't be bothered anymore. Your a sad act.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

nothing these chaps would like. valves & horns.

I've listened to a pair of the larger Acapella loudspeakers a few years ago now at a show. Amazing dynamics and truly huge scale, if I'd got the room I'd go that way but competant small/medium sized horn speakers pale in comparison, though certainly still sound great so I made a choice and went conventional, I made the right choice but like I say, if I'd got the room... actually I'd probably do large line arrays if I'd got the room.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

You have nothing remotely constructive to add, as usual.

Talk about kettle calling the pot black!

Mr Cat's post had far more relevance than all the usual rhetoric that you've posted in this thread so far.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

So please don't try telling me that ATCs have audible distortion, because I know that they don't.

I still can't believe you posted that. Every loudspeaker on the planet has audible distortion, the very concept of a loudspeaker is flawed from inception, audible distortion is a given.

 

[murray johnson]

Hi Baudrillard,

I deliberately avoided saying TVC's and I did make it quite clear that it was just my opinion re the speakers.

KUB

'Hissy, slow, warm valves' You have no idea!

Shinobiwan. My comment wasn't directed at you. You seem to know what you are talking about.

 

[anon_bb]

Ah shin ... but you havent mounted atcs on phase 15 mana have you? Until you have done that (with bubs system in bubs room) then you are not qualified to make any kind of judgement based on mere immutable physical characteristics.

One day bub will start dissing the distortion of the atc just as he now disses the ninja lp12 he used to own. He would chuck his entire system away including sme if he actually bothered to go out there and buy on the basis of actually listening to more than one brand before buying - rather than choosing based on the glossy pictures and magazine reviews. A hifi trainspotter of the worst order. Doubtless all his mates tell him the system is great just to stop him droning on.

Murray - doubtless I would find your own choices just as odious