So Thorsten has broken cover ...

[ShinOBIWAN]

Nice looking boxes shin - is the tweeter a revelator?

Thanks, its a scanspeak ring radiator, I don't believe this is part of the revelator range. TBH its not worth the money asked for it - a pair is around £500, its certainly a nice driver but overpriced.
The tweeter is probably the weakest part of the loudspeaker so I'm looking to try alternatives. The one I'm interested in is the new Scan D3004-6600. I've seen measurements over at Zaph Audio and a few opinions from the lucky ones that managed to grab a pair and they look to be possibly the best dome around.

Supravox also have a 98dB sensitive dome that would work well with the ATC mid but again these are around £400 per pair and its tough to find opinions and data on them also.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Shinobiwan. My comment wasn't directed at you. You seem to know what you are talking about.

Oh I know, I just wanted to back you up on horns having the potential to sound better than anything being discussed here, its just a shame that the really good ones need a big dedicated room.

What are your thoughts on high efficiency line arrays?

 

[murray johnson]

...if he actually bothered to go out there and buy on the basis of actually listening to more than one brand before buying - rather than choosing based on the glossy pictures and magazine reviews. A hifi trainspotter of the worst order. Doubtless all his mates tell him the system is great just to stop him droning on.

Hi BBV, who exactly are you talking about here?

Both you and Bub seem to me to be peas from the same pod. Likewise your systems. That's why its funny to see you arguing. Its like two cats fighting over a clockwork mouse!

Shin,

I don't think I've listened to an HE line array. Are there commercial examples I might have come across?

I am interested in your tweeters. I did some work with the lower cost Vifa version and found it very good. I'm sure the Scanspeak is much better though. My tweeters are the alnico JBL 2405 ring radiators which I find very plausible.

 

[The Devil]

What an obnoxious little man...... I'm really surprised you have any friends at all....Undoubtedly your the most narrow minded and boring person...Thorsten was 20x your intellectual equivalent....Your a sad act..

Class. You are a delightful, fun-loving individual, no doubt.

I'm fully prepared to admit that my system has plenty of distortion elements and that these are audible. They're still a magnitude lower than the ATC stuff though

How on Earth can you assert this when you've already admitted that your sole experience of the larger ATC speakers was a fairly brief "demo" of some kind or another?

Attempting to "prove" that you know better than ATC how best to "implement" their drivers is rather sad, given that they design & manufacture them.

 

[anon_bb]

To Bub. My system is nothing like his and I have derived it by entirely different means. And I am nothing like Bub. You are just making a lot of generalisations.

Actually bub you havent.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Hi BBV, who exactly are you talking about here?

Both you and Bub seem to me to be peas from the same pod. Likewise your systems. That's why its funny to see you arguing. Its like two cats fighting over a clockwork mouse!

Shin,

I don't think I've listened to an HE line array. Are there commercial examples I might have come across?

I am interested in your tweeters. I did some work with the lower cost Vifa version and found it very good. I'm sure the Scanspeak is much better though. My tweeters are the alnico JBL 2405 ring radiators which I find very plausible.

The scan version of the vifa ring rad is better but not by a whole lot and the differences between each quickly become laughable when you consider its £50 vs. £250. If the Scan ring rad was £100 then it could be considered reasonable value. But its one of those statement drivers that seems to get pushed up high as the best thing around, its not that at all.

I've never heard of the JBL ring radiators before, I've just done a quick google and they certainly look interesting.

 

[anon_bb]

Did you read that in a magazine bub? It certainly wouldnt be from your own experience - even you know it cant be relied upon!

 

[anon_bb]

All speakers have audible distortion bub - its a fact. Rely on science not glossy rhetoric and you might make some more progress. You'd certainly be less of an oaf.

 

[murray johnson]

The JBL Slot is very sensitive though and it would be a shame to throw that away on a lower sensitivity design. I use some Vitavox S2's between 500 & 5KHz

The JBL is fab though, the best tweeter I've heard by miles. (alnico much nicer than ceramic version although ceramic still good)

 

[The Devil]

"All speakers have audible distortion"

Do they? I don't think so.

 

[Markus S]

Murray, how do you do the xo between the mid horn and the JBL?

 

[anon_bb]

Yes bub they do- even colouration is a distortion. Think about what the term actually means. If you can.

 

[Tenson]

Kub3, Shin, I don't want to give too much away about my speakers too soon, give it a little more time Going well though.

I was going to try a pair of D3004-660000 or the Seas Millennium from Linkwitz fame. The Millennium has more excursion and was measured on a slightly smaller baffle hence its earlier measured roll-off. On the other hand driver design has probably progressed since the Millennium so the subjective performance might be better in the D3004.

Something to consider might be a Hi-Vi D8.8+ with the dustcap removed (4" voice coil!) and a ScanSpeak D3004 (just the right size without face plate) mounted in the pole piece. 4th order Xover at about 1.5KHz. If you replaced the dustcap with a small hole for just the dome of the tweeter and space the tweeter back enough for the negative excursion of the cone it would make a very interesting monitor IMO.

Mr. Devil, it is true that all speakers have audible distortion. If they didn't they would be indistinguishable from a live performance in the room, including vertical spatial information which is not possible to reproduce from a stereo speaker without false trickery playing with phase in the recording.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Class. You are a delightful, fun-loving individual, no doubt.

How on Earth can you assert this when you've already admitted that your sole experience of the larger ATC speakers was a fairly brief "demo" of some kind or another?

Attempting to "prove" that you know better than ATC how best to "implement" their drivers is rather sad, given that they design & manufacture them.

And its equally sad to assume that because a manufacturer builds its own drivers and implements them into its loudspeaker system then it automatically guarantees the best results.

I'm armed with all the important measurements as well as listening tests and experience of both ATC's own implementations and also my approximation of ATC's implementation used on the speaker I've shown here. As well as an XO that negates much of the problems with the ATC mid.

The drivers have clear limitations and flaws that are undeniable. I'm using the same drivers as you and your subject to those same limitations. ATC didn't bend the laws of physics its just that you haven't heard anything other than ATC's take on how things should be done and you have no practical experience working with the ATC drivers - you've only listened to them in one particular XO setup so how would you know if things can get better? How can you be so arrogant as to be so sure that ATC got it right with zero evidence other than you've listened to them, like them and then defend them at any costs including your self respect. ATC got it OK but there's more to be had.

Considering all that, who's better equipped to judge the bigger picture? You or I?

Also isn't the 30th Anniversary meant to be a better design than the SCM50 anyway? If that's the case then things look a little worse.

This is going round in circles now since you've asked me that same question pages ago. I've provided you with evidence that others have agreed upon and that anyone with a reasonable understanding of loudspeaker design would concur with. If you wish to dismiss then its hardly the end of the world.

 

[anon_bb]

Blind faith in hifi manufactuerers is woefully undeserved bub.

Well shin bub has heard isobariks as well.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

"All speakers have audible distortion"

Do they? I don't think so.

Of course they do, your so narrow minded though that you assume distortion is purely harmonics. Measure your inroom performance and tell me is it 0dB deviation across its entire passband? Is it the same for phase variance? Is the step response a perfect peak with no swing back and decay? Will it pass a perfect square wave? When you attach an accelorometer to the cabinet does it have zero resonance? And the list goes on...

All those things are indicators of performance and many are audible, any deviation is distortion. I think that your idea of distortion is one of a gross nature or your just fooling yourself.

A performance in a room follows the exact acoustical nature of that venue perfectly. A loudspeaker deviates from both the source and also the venue - distortion on two fronts. We can only try to get as close to the source as possible and then rely on the source to be as close to the original venue as possible.

FFS bub, ignorance is bliss but your bordering on neanderthal.

 

[Dev]

This looks like something that T would put together.

Murray, there are quite a few valve and TVC fans here.

 

[anon_bb]

Even if distortion was just purely harmonic (which it isnt) - all speakers still produce copious quantities of that!

This tops even your ridiculous posts on human hearing.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Kub3, Shin, I don't want to give too much away about my speakers too soon, give it a little more time Going well though.

Look forward to seeing what you do with those drivers. The Manger is especially interesting.

Also if you manage to get hold of a D3004-6660 let me know, I've been looking for a couple of months now and after a let down from Wilmslow I've learned that they've been pushed back until early 2007 because of production problems - what that means I have no idea, hopefully not problems with reliability or the design itself but just fabrication or material related.

 

[murray johnson]

Hi Dev,

This is a 30w monoblock. I actually took these to a Wigwam bakeoff last weekend. Everyone there complained how warm, slow and hissy they were.

Markus

The S2 mid is in a 330Hz 4 cell Vitavox horn which naturally curtails the HF response. I feed the 2405's first order via a clarostat resistor and 8uF PIO. The join is pretty seamless. At some point I'd like to try the S2's on a tractrix but haven't got round to it yet as I enjoy them as they are.

But this has strayed off topic. People here really want to read about the great PMC vs ATC debate, whether Brystons are better than Naims and which of Bub and BBV has the bigger wallet.