Technics SL1200/1210 debate

murray johnson said:
Incidentally, when you acquired the SME 20, was that based on some technical data that proved beyond any doubt that it would retrieve more information from your records than the LP12 did? Or did you just listen to it & think, 'yes, thats better'?
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That's changing the entire deck & arm, not changing a power supply. Not a very good analogy.
 
Devil. The issue isn't about what constitutes the change but whether a single opinion is enough or whether measurements and technical data are required. They obviously weren't necessary when you chose the SME. The improvement was sufficiently large that they weren't necessary. Your own opinion was enough. Based on the listening I've done with a modified 1210, the apparent change was convincing enough for me. I'm not in the market for a 1210 though, so it doesn't really matter.

Paul, if someone has a Timestepped 1210 and can upload recordings with & without it'd certainly be fun to compare them.

I don't have one and at the moment I'm more interested in trying to get a good result from this old beast.
P1010072.jpg
 
murray johnson said:
Devil. The issue isn't about what constitutes the change but whether a single opinion is enough or whether measurements and technical data are required. They obviously weren't necessary when you chose the SME. The improvement was sufficiently large that they weren't necessary.
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Well, the difference was very, very large, and not shades of grey, so to speak.

And there seems little or no reason why a Timestep should make any difference whatsoever.
 
murray johnson said:
Having heard both, I'd say it was audible. I think the stock 1210 always sounds a bit 'grey' almost as if there was some kind of midrange grunge that the motor & platter were trying to follow. On the couple of occasions I've heard a deck with one of these power supplies running it, that greyness was noticeably diminished perhaps gone altogether. The earlier (pre quartz locked) SL110 also had that flat, colourless, grainy quality, probably even more pronounced. However, I don't think the SP10 Mk2 has it at all.

Motors follow what they are sent. They are transducers. Feed them rubbish, and they try to 'play' it.
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Murray,

"Grey, flat, colourless, grainy quality" along with some background instruments and low-level detail missing is very much how I'd describe my SL 1100As and early SP10. Also, an audible amount of groove roar with both examples of 1100s (not the SP10) regardless of arm/cart or substrate.

Perhaps the SP10 issues I mentioned were resolved with the Mk2 series? Comparison was with a second gen fruitbox ('77ish--1st motor thrust assembly frame/bearing change, no foam in the springs, KMAL arm w/various cartridges)



regards,

dave
 
Paul Ranson said:
EMT948?

I reckon an upgraded PSU will be a good improvement...

Paul
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938. psu? maybe not. The fitted cartridge and the onboard phono stage? almost certainly.

Black Dog. SP10 Mk1? that explains alot.

James. Out of interest, which version of power supply does your Model 20 have. The original one or the much improved 2nd one?
 
You could always try the original one. Perhaps surprisingly it was quite alot worse although I've no doubt that many people would have scoffed at the idea it could be improved.
 
£2500 seems quite alot for the Radikal, given what the needledrops on PFM suggest it does.
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It would seem quite alot regardless. OTOH it's a complete system, installed by a dealer and setup in your home. And you get a free phono pre PSU thrown in. After a while it starts to seem quite a bargain...

Paul
 
I'm not sure that the physical location of the motor control electronics is actually relevant in that instance. What is relevant is the fact that overall their function could be and was improved.

I still suspect that the very idea it could have been improved upon would have been dismissed in some quarters. Until of course SME actually did it!

If you don't feel that removing the power transformer and giving the 1210's power supply better regulation might audibly change the performance of the TT that's up to you. In my opinion it did. You may be in a better position to comment if a, you choose to discuss it with the manufacturer (he sometimes participates on the AoS forum as well as on the Vinyl Engine forum) and b, you actually listen to it.*


*James having already established that simply listening to something is all the evidence required.

The Devil said:
Well, the difference was very, very large, and not shades of grey, so to speak.
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Presumably so large even his wife heard the difference ;)
 
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What is relevant is the fact that overall their function could be and was improved.
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And it is doubtless the case with the entry level Technics that the motor control could be improved. The question is whether the TimeStep has a significant positive effect.

Perhaps Steven will post before and after needle drops when he buys one? Maybe Soundhifi will offer Martin Colloms a review sample? Maybe an SL1210/2 will fall out of the sky into my garden this afternoon?

Paul
 
Frankly, I have read many reviews in which the magazine does not use a scope and provide detailed results.

At the other end of the spectrum we have Stereophile whom I feel really shine in this regard.

I know we have plenty of people here on ZG capable of measuring the performance of a piece of equipment, and writing an analysis of the results.

In this instance we are discussing - it is not hifi speak regarding Jilly Gould style flowery prose... more a technical 'look' at what the effects of a replacement PSU make to the turntable. a 'yes' or 'no' and 'how if yes' ...

Without this we will have pages and pages of useless ''yes it will'' no it can't '' .. with precious little to back up either position..

I'll take the initiative and email Timestep.
 
Hi,

If we can get a power supply, I will supply a technics SL1210 and have one standard to compare.

I was think of tweaking one up at some stage.

SCIDB
 
murray johnson said:
I'm not sure that the physical location of the motor control electronics is actually relevant in that instance. What is relevant is the fact that overall their function could be and was improved.

I still suspect that the very idea it could have been improved upon would have been dismissed in some quarters. Until of course SME actually did it!
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I believe that SME altered the design of the PS in order to comply with certain new regulations governing devices of this kind. Since this is hi-fi, and not an area of human endeavour where rational decisions take place, the revised PS has naturally been described as "upgraded".

P.S. I don't have a "hi-fi" wife.
 
Are you now suggesting that the performance of the revised power supply is no better than the earlier one? Have you listened to the effect of both?


PS. Are your anecdotal subjective opinions about the magnitude of performance improvements somehow more valid than anyone else's?
 


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