Technics SL1200/1210 debate

no mods either on both 1200 or 1210's will make a significan change audiable from the characteristics of their sound, the only chaged i noticed having all of them since the sl 120mk11 and 150 mk11 was the mat and the use of the sumiko cartridge, no psu helped at all, iso plats neither, sound wise i always liked them with or with out sme, just like food add sauce or take it plain,i still have a 100 mk2 for keep sake,
nando.
 
That negativity is always there, the disadvantage (for the deluded) of a forum is that it is out in the open.

FWIW I think that for once the Devil does raise an interesting point, why should the timestep improve matters?

I'm perfectly happy to accept that it does but surely the why also merits some detailed comment. It would be very interesting to hear from the timestep chap

On the other hand Steven, I don't think you can just keep plugging away in the expectation that everyone will come around to your point of view over time. Some people are just going to disagree with you, for ever. I think continuing to respond to the 'he said, she said' and 'Someone heard this at that show that was rubbish anyway' comments is a total waste of time.
 
bottleneck said:
Unfortunately the chap behind Timestep doesnt want involvement, due to a perceived negativity on the thread. It's a shame but I do understand his feelings.
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Surprising that he can't defend or promote his product in public. Would have been nice to know what "under load" means, f'rinstance.
 
We could try that if you're game?
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Definitely.

It should be possible to try some basic experiments with the PSU and capture the results so that everybody and anybody (except The Devil who can't work computers) can form an opinion on the sound.

Dave Cawley can't lose from non-involvement. We show a benefit from externally regulated PSUs, well he has one for sale. We show no benefit, well we aren't doing it right. It's the right decision for him.

The biggest problem, which tracks to use as references?

Paul
 
Hi Paul

I think acoustic recordings of instruments with a long, clean decaying note make some sense for such.

Solo piano pieces for example.. but I'm sure most records would suffice, and that is only an opinion.
 
Might be worth mentioning that the best DD TTs get W&F down to 0.02% - but an error of just 1mm off centre at the spindle will bump that to over 0.1%.
Very few discs are perfectly centred and many have far greater errors.

Just a bit of perspective.

*An old 1700mk2, a direct but very similar ancestor to the 1200 produced 0.05% w&f, no measurable slowing under load (2g tracking cartridge) and weighted motor unit noise figures of -79db.
Those figures are actually better than an SP10/2.


*M Colloms HFC 1981.
 
Yes. My original point, which seems to have become buried beneath much wailing, teeth gnashing, plus the distraction of a suicide bomber, was that the stock 1200's w&f figures will be pretty much impossible to improve on. In that respect, it's almost too good, and an external PS seems about as useful as a perfumed exhaust on a sports car.

Obviously there is more to good vinyl replay than just w&f, which is why I was asking about vibration pathways in the 1200. This question has been largely ignored.
 
The Devil said:
Obviously there is more to good vinyl replay than just w&f, which is why I was asking about vibration pathways in the 1200. This question has been largely ignored.
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It's kind of a CLD (constrained layer damping) construction: hard alloy top-plate, plastic damping inside, rubber bottom plinth, decoupled rubber feet - it gets 'softer' the further down you get. I get the impression a fair amount of thought has gone into it, especially from the MkII onwards, i.e. after it's adoption as a club deck, which is about the most hostile environment imaginable for a turntable. I've never had one at home to listen to, nor even heard one in a decent system, but I've had a 'go' on a pair (attempting to beat match a couple of copies of Hardfloor's Fish 'n' Chips) and they are very solid and well made turntables. I suspect they are a bargain at the price.

Tony.
 
I suspect the benefits, if the power supply you use has an effect, will be at much higher frequencies than those which might affect the reproduction of sustained piano notes. I doubt that wavering of the kind audible on some of the various LP12's needledropped on PFM would not be audible on a stock 1210 anyway. Improvements in the reproduction of massed strings, brass & vocals might however. A reduction in perceived hash is what I heard which seem to give a calmer presentation.
 
I'll see if Hi-Fi World can get a simple A-B wow and flutter measurement made on a stock SL1200 vs. Timestep SL1200, soon.

I must say though that measured performance (MP) is only half the story; we regularly test things that measure very well but audition poorly. It's reductive to say that if there's no difference in MP, there's no difference in sound. All that shows is that the MP regime isn't perfect. And it isn't; it's a useful tool, a convenient shortcut, but you still need to use your ears in the final instance. Piano, chewy bass guitar or steel string guitar arpeggios are brilliant at telling you everything you need to know about a deck's wow and flutter.
 
David Price said:
I must say though that measured performance (MP) is only half the story; we regularly test things that measure very well but audition poorly.
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It is the whole story if we are simply seeking evidence that 3rd party PSUs improve speed stability and reduce noise.
Those things can be measured and directly compared.

Where meaningful measurements get much harder to make and interpret is when attempting to measure stuff such as suggested by James, the audible effects of vibration pathways and complex resonant behaviours within the whole TT/arm structure.
 
Well no it isn't Rob; if both stock and 3rd party PSUs turn it 0.02% WRMS or suchlike, then clearly it doesn't explain why one sounds better (or more rhythmically correct) than the other!

It's also important to point out that such measurements don't account for dynamic wow, and how the motor responds to short-term demands. This is likely to have just as much effect as vibration pathways, and is constantly overlooked. Would you assess a car solely by simply driving it at 56MPH and assessing how easily it stays at that speed?
 
The Devil said:
Guy, I know I'm stupid, but why?
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That's not a stupid question. Presumably because the impulses that propel the platter around aren't as clean or delivered as smoothly as they might be. In the case of the 1210, I think the 'slowing under load' issue might be a red herring or at least slowing under load that causes power supply grunge to become more evident. I suspect the grunge is there, manifests itself in some way in the motor drive signal and results in the platter not turning as smoothly as it might. The effect wouldn't impact on any measured w&f figures which tend (as I understand it) to be focussed on speed fluctuations occurring below about 250 Hz anyway.


There have been far worse sounding direct drive designs than the 1210 in the past that still turned in exemplary w&f performance. On those, I expect the motor was getting an even more crudely synthesised series of impulses. The old SL110 was one such but most of the Japanese majors made cut price DD's with decent measured speed stability & awful sound. Some of that is down to the flimsy structures the motors were fitted to but not all of it.


Of course, all of the above is conjecture. I'll be interested to read what the planned experiments reveal but I don't think that the traditional measurements of w&f will reveal much.

Its worth reading a little about the type of motors this concerns and the complexity involved in driving them cleanly & accurately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor
 
i have been modding these decks for over a decade i have not tried a timestep psu but tried the kab one and found miniscule improvements mainly in a touch of reduced noise and the tiniest gain in focus when listening to very dense classical and some old blue note jazz and some of my own productions.
you can do a dj mod that makes the quartz lock different and that is said to give the similar fluid presentation that some people have mentioned but when i tried this i just found that very complex piano pieces became less stable and sounded a bit more hazy in terms of the musical progression became less sure.
biggest differences i have found are funk firm platters better arms and feet.
all other tweaks were very expensive and only seemed to offer differences not improvements.
i tried the sds mat and found it very average.
i dont really rate the jelcos unless you are using vintage style denon carts and heavy headshells.
i have had great results with the roksan arms and the big sme arms.
also the mission mechanic sounded brilliant with an acrylic arm board and briar cartridge.

just my opinion though.
 
A wow&flutter measurement presented as a number is of no real interest. What would be interesting is a recording of the test tone. This can be demodulated and the resulting errors compared and contrasted.

Paul
 


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