Technics SL1200/1210 debate

[RobHolt]

If you say so James.

A DAC with a valve output stage that I am going to hear on Monday will hopefully strip away even more grain.

A DAC doesn't need a valve output stage, so why add one?
It might add something to cover up this illusive grain.
In reality it will make the performance of the DAC worse.

Your statement also indicates that you are rather prone to expectation bias.

 

[David Price]

If you say so James.

A DAC with a valve output stage that I am going to hear on Monday will hopefully strip away even more grain.

Well, it might add a more soft and fluffy feel to the DAC. Conversely, you could say the valve stage will remove the grain of what would otherwise have been a load of transistors in the way!

It doesn't really matter; different strokes and all that. Depends if it sounds better in your system.

In my experience, it's better to get the DAC right in the first place. If you're looking for a 'valvey' sounding DAC the original Chord DAC64 is a peach; very very smooth and vinyl like. No valves in it though. Tube Technology did a version of the same DAC with valve output stage, which must have been a treat to hear, but I never did sadly.

 

[Purite Audio]

Valves do not belong in dacs, listen to something with a pro audio background, prism, weiss, DAD, metric halo etc.
Keith.

 

[RobHolt]

In my experience, it's better to get the DAC right in the first place.

Exactly.

I can understand why people use valve amps, or valve phono stages, old tuners etc because the technology is at the heart of the design. No point slapping them on the end of a SS circuit though.

 

[The Devil]

It somewhat misses the nuances! Is it because you couldn't grasp the nuances, or you're not interested in them?

What nuances are there to be grasped, when transistor amplifiers (which have no sand at all involved in their manufacturing process) are disparagingly described as "sand amps" by ignorant people who are using valve amplifiers (which actually do have sand as substrate)? Or when alleged "giant-killers" aren't anything of the kind? Or when journalists who really ought to know better display their shocking ignorance about how amplifiers actually work?

It's all just transparent hype, isn't it?

 

[Steven Toy]

TBH I hope the valve DACwill be an upgrade over that built into the Bel Canto in terms of resolution and dynamics. If it removes even more grain that will just be an added bonus.

I have it on good authority that it is very good. As always the proof of the pudding...

 

[Steven Toy]

James, 'shocking ignorance' coming from you. Nice one!

 

[Dave Simpson]

Natural musical textures i.e. the harmonic structure of instruments that enables you to identify the particular instrument (or even particular guitar pick-up) are clearly audible where this inherent grainy texture, the one stamped all over every sound passing through solid state amps, is absent.

Steve,

I understand what you're saying but you've placed the blame on the wrong cause. These problems are not inherent in solid state circuitry. What you are experiencing is simply the masking of low-level detail (signal distortion) which can occur with any gear due to a number of reasons. Often, it's simply caused by a setup problem and easily fixed.

I have no problem here distinguishing between P90 soapbars, Fender single coils and different vintages of Gibson humbucking pickups or the sound of new strings vs old--all courtesy of an entirely solid state system.

regards,

dave

 

[Steven Toy]

I agree re. setup. It is important.

 

[lbr]

Wot a life!

This thread's got a bit weird again?

Is anyone on this forum running two systems, one valve, one solid-state?

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts about their relative merits.

I am. They're both very good and although different I can't say that "grain" would be in the lexicon of description

 

[David Price]

What nuances are there to be grasped... It's all just transparent hype, isn't it?

Yes it is, The Devil. You've well and truly banged everything and everyone to rights, haven't you? Thank heavens that all hi-fi (and human?) life can be reduced to one pithy aphorism!

Phew! Now we've arrived at a 'settled position' on everything, then I suppose there's no need for any more debate, discussion, or input from anyone else here, on this or any other topic, as you've just reached the conclusion for us!

Ermm, so what do we do next then? Now that everything that's different from your belief system is "hype", and there's absolutely nothing more to be learned or debated about anything, where do we go from here?

What a fascinating position this is to take; a triumph of reductivism over reason!

 

[Paul Ranson]

David,

The modified SL12x0 is being hyped by people who demonstrably do not know what they are talking about and choose to remain ignorant. This is the failure of reason.

Meantime it is still interesting to know how good the turntable actually is, and whether upgrading the PSU makes any real difference. And then whether it is necessary to spend £300.

Paul

 

[David Price]

Hi Paul,

Yes - you're right. What we're supposed to be doing on this strand is getting nearer the truth about the SL1200 and the mods.

Trouble is, no dealers can 'dem' this and those who've done the mod(s) aren't believed when they post their findings online!

Ultimately I think, it's a case of suck it and see. The SL1200 can be picked up very inexpensively and upgraded to a very high level, as I've said. I've also said that there's a certain tipping point, as it were, where it's not really worth upgrading it any more, as you might as well get an SP10.

Still, all these niggly questions and negativity on this thread simply doesn't chime with my experience of the SL1200. With a decent arm (Audio Origami RB250) and a couple of the aforementioned mods (not including PSU) it's a gorgeous sounding deck that any user of a Gyro/Linn/Xerves etc. would be more than happy to live with. With the PSU mod and a few other things, it's even better still.

As I've said, in absolute terms it's slightly compressed dynamically and not the most expansive left to right, but you're comparing it to £5k turntables then.

And this said, it's still riotously good fun to listen to, even next to superdecks... the upside of the SL1200 is that it's very fast, punchy and boppy sounding; I almost think artificially so; it really 'adds life' to the music, like, ermm, 'Coke'!

 

[Steven Toy]

Paul, pray tell us the great ignorant unwashed what we need to know before we are allowed to invite you and other bone-dry reductivists just to suck it and see. Oh and please forgive us our exuberence in playing it too loud nearly seven months ago.

The subjectivist process is simple and honest: listen, listen some more, report back outline other experiences for comparison, give as much info as possible about the context, invite others to do the same, compare experiences and contexts.

This process is not proving that your honest account stands up to seemingly probing and yet disingenuous (in certain quarters) scrutiny. If you don't believe what people tell you but are remotely interested, go find out for yourself.

I have never suggested to anyone to buy something based purely on such recommendation. That would be stupid and would defeat the whole point of the subjectivist approach. What we seek instead is hopefully a consensus based on shared experience, nothing more and nothing less.

I have never had reason to object to opinions that differ to mine that are actually based on experience. I also presume that people post in good faith until they demonstrate otherwise. Unfortunately plenty of, er, contributors here have done just that. There is only so long those of us with open minds and ears coupled with a willingness to try new things will bang our heads against the proverbial before we eventually lose the will to live and leave this place to those who wish to wallow in the tumbleweed that now unfortunately characterises ZG - a once busy and vibrant forum effectively choked to death by wannabe consumer crusaders.

 

[The Devil]

James, 'shocking ignorance' coming from you. Nice one!

I would be willing to bet that you don't even know how a transistor works, nor what exactly they do in an amplifier. You don't even know what they are made from.

The subjectivist train above is all very well, until it runs into the unwelcome buffers of other people (with agendas) evaluating your hi-fi in public.

 

[Steven Toy]

Explain, James, how does a transistor work?

I buy my hi-fi direct btw, from people who actually make it that I can ask for you if you wish.

I don't work on the production line at Opel either but I know how my car drives.

Explain to me James why you post on hi-fi forums?

What do you get out of it and how do you help others in the process?

 

[The Devil]

So, I was right: you don't know. Did you study electronics at school? Physics A level? Know what a semiconductor is? If no, no & no, then you could Google it, but there might well be a comprehension hurdle.

The point is, though, you are happy to spout off about the alleged disadvantages of transistors, without having the first clue about them. Simply because someone, somewhere told you they are made from sand, you are willing to believe that they sound "grainy".

 

[RobHolt]

There is only so long those of us with open minds and ears coupled with a willingness to try new things will bang our heads against the proverbial before we eventually lose the will to live and leave this place to those who wish to wallow in the tumbleweed that now unfortunately characterises ZG - a once busy and vibrant forum effectively choked to death by wannabe consumer crusaders.

This thread - 6595 views.

However, give me quality over copious amounts of shit every time, and there is an awful lot of shit clogging up audio forums.

 

[TonyL]

Oh, I think you'll find differently Steven.
The recent cable testing thread was an indication that arguing and demonstrating form an objective position can prove very popular. In fact I'd say many found it a very refreshing change.

Agreed. I'm probably more to the subjectivist end of the spectrum myself, but I welcome it - I suspect it will give ZG a much needed boost and make for some very interesting reading. The cable thread was just brilliant, and I say that as someone known to share a room with an expensive cable or two! There's certainly a gap in the market for a clearly objectivist / science based audio forum IMO. I'm not one for forcing forums, they tend to do their own thing on their own, but if the threads are good the interest will arrive. The cable thread was good enough that it may yet find it's audience, it's one of the funniest things I've ever read on an audio forum.

Tony.

 

[Steven Toy]

Tony, good cables need not be expensive. This is something I learnt late last year. My last cable upgrade netted me almost enough cash to pay for a linear PSU.