teenage pregs.

Julian, I think that you've made some very good points and I tend to agree with you that linking benefits to some sort of parenting education is a good thing.

My children are younger than yours (3 and nearly 5 years old) and I would say that, in addition to what we learnt from our own parents, we can pick up new knowledge from grandparents (who have often 'improved' the second time around), from discussions with other parents at playgroups or schools, teachers and the television. Thank heavens for Supernanny.

 

8 probably is a bit young, I mean how do you explain it without going in to details? My mum used to always avoid answering the questions if I asked somthing like that. The media makes things hard as well. For example words like "gay" are frequently used on Coronation Street.

Interestly Coronation Street always has the choldlock on it these days (on freeview) even though its only broadcast at 7:30 when most kids are still awake.

 

I'll never have kids of my own (disability, and not particularly liking kids to be honest), but if my nephews or nieces (all cracking good, and well behaved kids!) were to ask me about this sort of stuff, I'd not BS them.

I've never BS'd any of them - when our cat had to be put down, Chris (then 5 years old) asked where she was. I got in terrible trouble from my brother for saying "She's dead; she was ill and we had to have her put to sleep. She's 4 feet under that rose bush over there". Sorry to shatter illusions, but you CAN explain complex things without having to make up fairy tales. The only time you should tell lies to your kid is when it's Santa Claus - that's one acceptable one I'd keep up until they're 10-ish.

It'd be the same with sex; if Anna (oldest niece, 12) asked me about it, I'd be well embarrassed, but would be a straight talker (OK, so I'm not SO hot on the "practical" (some experience though thankfully!) but got an A in GCSE Human Biology, so the theory's sound) and would say "if you MUST do it, this this and this can happen, and this this and this will minimise the risks, but I don't think your folks will approve!". Mind you, both parents are school teachers (mum's a HEAD teacher - oops!!) and they're all Catholic, so she'd have so much guilt she'll probably never do it.

As for the dilemna - I'd tell my kid "this isn't a knocking shop - piss off outdoors and use a johnny you dilinquent - what's wrong with w*nking off and saving the planet from yet another unwanted kid?" - although of course they'd probably be doing it to get a free council house...

This is the third reason I'll NEVER have kids - I'd be a hypocrite if I did, as I diss many parents something chronic. I don't feel I'd have the temperament or patience, and certainly wouldn't want some of my comments re bad parenting to come back and bite me on the ass!!!! There's plenty of people on the planet without me adding to the problem...

 

julian
It's all about education i agree. It's also about opportunity as well. the lack of it could help explain the antics of the three young women who kicked the thread off.

i think we're going to have agree to disagree about linking any sort of parenting classes and the like to benefit system and parenting classes at school might send out the wrong signals

 

when eloise asks me what 'gay' means i hope that i will tell her.

by the way Dom - kid are great!

 

your dead sound ,Dom.

This stupid cow went on tv to slate the govt. and schools as letting her down. Its all her fault, noone elses, mind you she has nothing to be mad about, she's getting 31k from the taxpayer and a house and wants a bigger one, she loves it really.
She needs punishing somehow for being a total failure of a mother, and being so dim as to think its not her fault

I say take kids off young mothers under 16, its illegal to have sex, so they shouldn't be allowed to have kids, ethically dubious I know, but what can you do?

We don't need more education, education is everywhere, we have more than ever b4, we now have more problems than ever b4.

Its the media scum that are responsible, they ought to be taken from their jobs and put to work on a tesco till, clearly they can't be trusted to 'share information' on things that matter, they are responsible for greed, murder, violence. They tell people what and how to do bad things.

The media IMNSHO is one of the most dangerous forces for evil in this world, it can also do some good in the right hands.

The BBC are going down a very sad sorry road, they are TOTALLY obsessed with image and looks, ratings and figures.

I propose putting me in charge of it, I would

1 sack all the pretty faces,
2 scrap reality tv,
3 scrap soaps
4 scrap the shitty game and most chat shows and only show

drama,
docs,
good comedy inc old stuff like carry ons, morcambe and wise, harold lloyd, chaplin, laurel and hardy, dick emery, benny hill, new cutting edge like bill hicks, etc.
replace the journalists and news readers with ones known for their integrity and experience like John Pilger,
rerun all the old films classic ones, and newer ones
make cutting edge drama,
show cartoons for kids.scifi and nature progs. star treks, dr who's,
sack all those useless tarts of weather prestenters with the shrill voices and replace with good ones like rob mckellwee and john kettley.pure decent experience, not dumbed down bollux appealing to the soap mentality.
That's my idea of good tv

 

Kids have always tried to grow up too quick (myself included) but my parents didn't alow it, my sisters were not allowed their ears peirced till they were 15 and 17 and makeup 17 onwards (they got good at doing it on the bus though) schools didn't alow makeup (girls or boys) etc. You see babies with pearced ears now and little girls in full make-up, parents are more lenient generation by generation its a sliding scale that can only continue. Even at 18 I wasn't alowed sex (wouldnt be alowed now at 35 unless I was married (not likely)) in my parents house, this little 12 year old girls mother was ok about it if she knew it was happening why didn't she stop it or at least supply contriception. They're old enough when they leave school and they leave school at 3.15 used to be a sick joke its now true.

 

As I laid out in a previous and somewhat similar thread, the UK has the social problems it suffers with due to a range of social structures which have emerged in response to historical events or periods of transition.

Yes the UK has scroungers, layabouts, violent thugs, drug dealers, problem kids, many people with a broad lack of respect for authority, etc. All the stuff that fills the pages of the Daily Mail, day in and day out.

But amongst these people are great swathes of decent people doing decent stuff in many cases against the odds. Living in difficult circumstances and making the best of things. You never read about these people so its easy to forget they exist - the Daily Mail couldnt possibly spoil their brain washing by reporting on such normality.

Lots of the issues of current anti-social behaviour have emerged as a result of the types of housing zones, social facilities and lack of opportunities. Poor education and lack of inspiration, lack of good role models, poor diet, lack of facilities (including easy access to fresh foods) all help to keep things as they are.

There is no doubt a dole culture emerged strongly during the seventies and eighties - as a teenager in the eighties the dole was genuinly an option and one many people I grew up with chose. I know of several old friends, intelligent, but lazy people who have been on benefits ever since - largely incapacity benefit due to poor mental state - one which emerged from being on the dole for so long (go figure).

So relatively generous benefits system with limited penalties doesnt help, though things are less lucrative now than they were. Unfortunately some kids have been born into a dole culture household so its no big deal if they carry on the tradition. The option then for upping your income is scamming, thieving, drug dealing and gang membership.

In contrast I know of plenty of kids born into really difficult circumstances who have simply raised their aspirations and got on with organising and progressing themselves. You must agree though for kids with few if any good role models and lots of bad ones - its not easy to be self-organised enough to break out of the habits you see all around you? If you think it is easy you're a fool.

I do have a problem with the lack of criticism aimed at a Parent who doesnt have a problem with her 12 year old being sexually active - blaming the school for a lack of sex education is ridiculous. Surely sex with a 12 year old in the UK is statutory rape?

The example of these three sisters is depressing, but i would add its pretty rare though the Daily Mail spin stuff like this to whip up feverous anxiety in the right wing and feeble minded. That's not to say the issue isnt to be taken seriously it's just not happening everywhere all the time.

All in all I believe there is a resonably substantial section of UK society whose belief systems, aspirations and stubborn flouting of authority can be traced back to Medaeval times - call them peasants, the non-working classes or whatever but they are a tradition in this country and are not easily changed.

I must say there are a few right wingers on this forum. At the end of the day life as a human in a crowded world is difficult and when architecting social policies - hitting the balance of assessing and helping the needy whilst motivating/penalising the lazy is an extremely complex and very hard one to strike.

Writing statements which try to deal with stuff like this in black and white terms is just dumb.

 

My parents were not that strict but we knew what was allowed and what wasn't. We knew if we based behaved the holiday would be canceled or my parents would sell the computer.

I am 22, but if I was to have sex in my house with my mohter in I would imagine she would have an awful lot to say about it. She she thought I was doing it else where she probably wouldn't bother but would be too emberased to say anything.

My parents are what you would call semi religious, they used to go to church as kids but they don't any longer. I don't think they believe half of wahts in the bible.

Its somthing that has never really been discussed. When I was 13 I nearly snogged a girl but half the school were watching and I knew it would go back to my parents, so I didn't becuase I was so scared I would get told off.

 

agreed Greg, its a complex thing traceable back to what you say, basically, the country is full of peasants and they are now in council houses, driving cars, going to spain for hols, drinking lager, reading the sun and watching satellite tv

 

Thats a bit stereotypical though, about from the sun bit you've describred my grandparents (although they prefered Blackpool to Spain it was cheaper . My grandad was a purchasing manager, and my grandma was a manager of a care home.

I'm sure you didn't mean to insult my grandparents

All their kids have gone on to get good jobs and nice houses, the poorest kid is my mum and her house is worth £200k.

However I do accept the figures and there is more social problems on council estates such as high teenage pregnancies, just remeber they are minorities but as I said before they are ones causing the problems. Most my grandparents neighbours are very decent people, although there is one family were are benefit cheats (the I'm too ill to work one) even though he is capable of cutting the grass etc despite not supposed to be able to walk.

I think money does help, the computer, holidays etc were a good incentive to behave when I was a kid, if we missed behave we didn't go on holiday. Of course you need a bit of money to do that, my parents were never well off, but doing most of my kid years they had a bit of spare money.

Mind you if that family get £31k a year they should be pretty well off, so I am not sure lack of money is the problem here.

I don't agree spending lots of money on kids and spoling them but they do need somthing to look forward to (such as a holiday) and this is rewarding good behavior.

 

A lot of these 'peasants' work 40 hours or more a week for the minimum wage, cannot afford to buy a house so live in rented houses instead. Some people are only moderately educated this is the goverments fault when they were in school. One question who would do the low paid jobs? Its a load of rubbish to say if you work hard you will be better off, what you mean is you will be more likely to be better off if you work hard. My mum worked full time and brought up 5 boys when you didn't get family credit then, we lived in a council house, she always paid the billls and always put a good meal on the table. She now has bad arthritis so cannot work and is hardup.

 

course not, its a certain type of person, they tend to wear tracksuits too, aka chavs, I am sure you know the type well. I have met good community minded people on council estates.

 

The council estates were nice places to live with community spirted people when my parents were young. The estate my mume grew up on, I wouldnt dare walk through even less drive through with the resentment factor thrown in.

 

Quite often it's the persons fault for declining to work at school, you can take a horse to water etc.

By the way it's nice to see prejudice about council housing alive and well, I've lived in a council house, as did my parents and grandparents, never felt the urge to buy any burbery though

 

Richard, it must frustrate you when kids capable of much choose not to learn? Although its the same in many industries to a lesser extent, even mine, you can give people excellent design and marketing strategies but they choose to ignore advice from experience and ability over their own (often doomed) ideas.

 

Yep there is rough council estate near my building at Salford and I've got stick from local scallies a few time, that type are just scum who are unlikely to ever get out of the rut.

I think my grandparents are lucky that their estate is quite nice, they own the house now, they do get some trouble from chavs but nothing a quick visit from the police dosn't sort out.

 

I have a met that was raised in a council tower block in Blackley, he is nothing like a chav either and will be graduating this year. He did get into a bit of trouble as a kid, but he had enough sense to realise that if he followed the crowd he would end up just like his peers (a lot of them were on drugs etc) so he worked hard at school and has done well.

He also has decent parents as well which is probably a major benefit.

I wish they would make it much stricter for people to get council houses, or at least stick all the trouble causers in one place, they try and do that in Manchester I think.

I think the main reason there is not much trouble on the estate my grandparents live is that is very hard to get a house there, you have to be a local and have kids at a local shchool before you can get put in the list.

I suppose some estates are worse than others, do you see lots of chavs on my grandparents estate but they are harmless, where as other estates you cannot walk down in even in day light.

 

Very good point. Just for clarity where I used the phrase peasants I'm not referring to hard working people on low incomes, I'm talking about the non-working who could work. Those who see sponging as an option as opposed to those who genuinely need support for one reason or another.

My family (my Mum and Dad) both grew up in poor circumstances financially speaking but emerged with aspirations to do better than their parents (both financially and educationally speaking) this is a very common tale.

The difference is their respective families were poor but not in spirit and certainly not in terms of their values. People like that arent peasants in my book.

The tough thing is there are lots of "good" kids who end up doing stupid things because they want to be accepted by their peer group, amongst which are some idiots. They fear being singled out or being bullied so they end up causing trouble. Arguably their weak minded and deserve what they get, but everyone makes mistakes. The same applies to girls becoming pregnant early. At their age, based on their limited experiences, it seems to make sense to some girls, and I guess can see why. It's the challenge to their parents to try and steer them clear.

In fact (IMO of course) the CHALLENGE here is this...
Adults, parents, teachers, social workers, youth workers, the police and the courts need somehow to endevour to establish a framework (whether formalised or simply by intent) to help kids make it to their 20's without making these life changing mistakes (pregnancy, crime, drugs, violence).

I think most kids go astray at some point in their lives - certainly in my experience - myself and my friends, but most kids get back on the straight and narrow again. Memories of positive events, influences and people during their early and teenage years are critical to them re-establishing a context and a value system as they grow up and break away (possibly) from the old *friends* who they used to try and be like.

I'm certainly not saying the idiot kids should be helped, but I'm sure everyone would agree there are some people who just set out to f*ck up relationships, things and other people at every turn. At some point this kind of person either needs drastic help or punishment.

Hitting kids hard when they make their early mistakes might serve to make Daily Mail readers feel better but in many cases this can serve to make criminals and resentful thugs out of otherwise decent and useful people - as they grow older. Trouble is this type of approach doesnt win votes or extra Daily Mail readers.

 

Good points Greg, but why would anyone not want to better themselves.

Rsand the reason why council houses were nice places to live in the past was because a council officer would go around every month checking peoples gardens and there houses every six months with the fret of being evicted. It was easier to be evicted in the past.

One more question who's worse the benefit cheat or the tax dodger. Both are cheating the country and other tax payers.