The Cable Test - listen and decide

[RobHolt]

i cant help think that "Quantum tunnelling" is a euphemism for "Getting shafted"

Stop it, the images are getting too much to cope with

Old Belt used to advocate scratching funny little symbols onto fuses for improved sound. Are there any research papers on the benefits of Quantum Tunneling v Quantum Scratching?

 

[DavidF]

AS cables have been the subject of much debate here, I wonder if someone can help out?

A forum member earlier today voiced his displeasure at the sale of after-market i/cs.

I asked him, why, if he had bought some he was not satisfied with, he had not taken them back for a refund? (what I would have done)

The member said it's "bleedin' obvious" and he won't "waste his time" telling me. He appears so have gone a little shy since then.

As a cables seem to be frequently such controversial subject here perhaps one of the more vociferous members (there are many doubters I am told) can enlighten me on his behalf (i.e, what the "bleedin' obvious" reason is?)

 

[Graffoeman]

.......i.e, what the "bleedin' obvious" reason is?

I'd have thought that was bleedin' obvious.

 

[Dev]

AS cables have been the subject of much debate here, I wonder if someone can help out?

A forum member earlier today voiced his displeasure at the sale of after-market i/cs.

I asked him, why, if he had bought some he was not satisfied with, he had not taken them back for a refund? (what I would have done)

The member said it's "bleedin' obvious" and he won't "waste his time" telling me. He appears so have gone a little shy since then.

As a cables seem to be frequently such controversial subject here perhaps one of the more vociferous members (there are many doubters I am told) can enlighten me on his behalf (i.e, what the "bleedin' obvious" reason is?)

Didn't he say that he follows his own advice and doesn't buy expensive cables? (or something to that effect.

 

[Andy]

I'd have thought that was bleedin' obvious.

:NADowner:

class.

 

[DavidF]

Didn't he say that he follows his own advice and doesn't buy expensive cables? (or something to that effect.

Well, yes, I beleive he did.

ok...

So, if he hasn't bought any, he can't really complain if it they don't work too well??



?

 

[sq225917]

david, you misread his post, he didn't state he was unhappy or had spent more than was sensible.

 

[DavidF]

david, you misread his post, he didn't state he was unhappy or had spent more than was sensible.

Surely the point is to advise people who have read all the cable blurb (& believe it) that they do not have to waste their money - it frees up their cash so they can spend it on more worthwhile & significant improvements, for example better amps, more music etc. Spend £150 on a better amp normally brings much more significant change.

How much have your cables cost you over the years?
How many times have you changed the really important Hardware? Think of the profit being made by the cable companies compared to the profit being made by the "real" manufacturers.

Think of it as Watchdog.

Ok, maybe this gent is not as dogmatic as some but I still don't think of cables as being a "waste".

I think you have to strike a balance between all your componants.

+I still think people (ie forum members)are capable if making their own judgments.

 

[Dave Simpson]

In the real world cables often make a difference. Some consider the difference large, others small and the same opinions will vary depending upon the specific circumstances.

Hat's off to Robert however for an entertaining test where bits and bobs tacked together sound like three other cables in various price ranges. I'm sure we could get similar results by accident or otherwise where all cheese would taste the same, etc. under specific test conditions.

My best advice would be to audition (in real time) and buy (or not) depending upon what you hear with the darn things lashing a complete system together. If you do hear a difference but can convince/hypnotize yourself it's imaginary, by all means, convince yourself and save some money. If you can't convince yourself it's imaginary, buy what sounds best and enjoy.

 

[The Devil]

2) we forget that the test numbers were so low as to render results less than meaningful.

You keep on saying this, but that doesn't make it true. Please present your reasons why you believe the results aren't significant.

 

[RobHolt]

n the real world cables often make a difference. Some consider the difference large, others small and the same opinions will vary depending upon the specific circumstances.

Hat's off to Robert however for an entertaining test where bits and bobs tacked together sound like three other cables in various price ranges. I'm sure we could get similar results by accident or otherwise where all cheese would taste the same, etc. under specific test conditions.

My best advice would be to audition (in real time) and buy (or not) depending upon what you hear with the darn things lashing a complete system together. If you do hear a difference but can convince/hypnotize yourself it's imaginary, by all means, convince yourself and save some money. If you can't convince yourself it's imaginary, buy what sounds best and enjoy.

That is ok when the listener is presented with a level playing field and the pressure is removed. That seldom exists in reality as you have a $mm accessory industry looking for profit.

On the charge that specific conditions give the null result (it wasn't quite) my experience with doing this test live with real guinea pigs produces the same result, even though the equipment changes.
A classic example was when at the last live dem I pretended to insert a length of Deltec cable - it looked like it was connected but in fact the old cheap lead was still in place. Everyone in the room heard a difference, and even more interestingly one or two started to describe experiences that tally remarkably with published online and magazine opinion about Deltec.
That is what the listener is up against, and not just with cables.
I can't stop it, no individual or group can but we can all get information and experiments out there that might at least inform a decision.
Well, and have a giggle in the process

 

[Dave Simpson]

Rob,

I'm firmly with you regarding the hype and bullshit in the industry, however, I believe most folks with any experience in the hobby realize this as well. Their choices are actually made from what they hear despite all the ridiculous "foo" comments posted on internet forums. It's all well and good for a laugh but the folks that actually buy based on audition do it on sound, price and reliability--not snake oil, foo or brainwashing. I've got years of experience in the trade witnessing this day in and out as well as observing the purchasing habits of audiophile friends who have totally different takes on hifi (and allegiances) than me.

The most convincing proof for me (if I required it) regarding cable differences would be the fact that the differences heard are always repeatable and are exactly the same years after the fact. When I had a more universally cabled system (Linn or non-Naim hybrids), I'd revisit my Cable Box once a year or so and retry past failures. Each and every time any given cable would sound just as I had remembered it. Often I didn't think about the original trial's sound heard years earlier until after the current dem. Expectation bias or whatever may be powerful but I seriously doubt to this extent.

As well, louder and thicker cables have not translated to best sound as the psychoacousticians predict with my experience. I generally do not find much if any difference between power cords but I have two examples here at the moment with a clear, audible difference. One is 12 gauge wire and the other is 14 gauge wire and both have standard appliance wire construction and materials. Both are recommended by my gear manufacturer and the heavier gauge wire is best in their opinion. It is double the price of the thinner cable ($25US vs $12US.) The thinner, cheaper cable to my ears sound best even though the thicker wire is louder and has more extended high frequencies. The thinner cable has slightly deeper bass and the lowest notes appear easier to follow during complex passages. The Experts say my observations cannot be; I should perceive the louder, thicker cable as better sounding; however, this isn't the case.

Ultimately, something has to be going on here with cable differences that's more than illusion. Perhaps it can be explained with simple L-C-R differences or some other known phenom--perhaps it will require more study and the discovery of unknown electrical phenomena that affects what humans hear--I don't know. I could be wrong but I'll bet actual scientists or audio engineers researching the field of audiology or music reproduction don't just "blow off" as an illusion what many report as audible simply because what's observed can't be explained with current measurements.

best,

dave

P.S. I've done blind dems with reps in shops over the years and never got one wrong. Every time we encountered samples that produced no differences we always found a setup problem that revealed differences once corrected with a few exceptions. The exceptions that ultimately sounded identical were tried in several systems to rule out a masking problem before conclusions were reached though.

Btw, I'm not suggesting your test was flawed...simply reporting my experiences.

 

[sq225917]

blackdog, or maybe they all just sounded the same and the differences in sound that you thought you heard were just in your head, based on the visual look of the cable and therefore easily remembered on insertion.

i guarantee you couldn't pick 3 out of 5 of those cables blind...

 

[Mescalito]

I think this is absolutely priceless. Well done Rob!

The cable equivalent of wet string cannot be distinguished from wanky bespoke cables.

However you cut it, it just confirms just about every other piece of objective or semi objective evidence on the subject.

I'll not be changing my Maplins ICs then.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Deaf Cat]

Bit Behind... will read from page 1 tonight,
My thoughts, as poll is closed

1 vs 2
1 bit messy sounding, 2 more together better image

3 vs 4
3 top end tad tinny but foot tapping, 4 something missing up top maybe, mind wonders off music (reminds me of chord cables - my kit and ears of course)

If I had to choose one I'd go for 3 even though I thought bass definition was tad better with 2, foot tapping ness better with 3 ,but top end too much for a permanent choice.

Must say differences I heard were very slight, if there at all
Glad I did hear some differences, good fun, as maybe more tests are possible

 

[Dave Simpson]

blackdog, or maybe they all just sounded the same and the differences in sound that you thought you heard were just in your head, based on the visual look of the cable and therefore easily remembered on insertion.

i guarantee you couldn't pick 3 out of 5 of those cables blind...

LOL...shame you don't live in the States or I'd take your money IF there was a difference to be heard and IF I were allowed to hear them on a system that could reveal the differences.

 

[DavidF]

I think this is absolutely priceless. Well done Rob!

The cable equivalent of wet string cannot be distinguished from wanky bespoke cables.

However you cut it, it just confirms just about every other piece of objective or semi objective evidence on the subject.

I'll not be changing my Maplins ICs then.
Regards,

Chris

This is the issue I have with this sort of test.

+ precisely what I wouldn't want to happen.

It gives a pretty false idea of possible benefits (I think people need to try the genuine article on their own system to get a true effect). That was probably your intention??

Still, I guess if people are keen they will try anyway.

Yes, nice test any way, Rob; I'll be interested to get the discs. Look forward to it.

 

[Mescalito]

This is the issue I have with this sort of test.

+ precisely what I wouldn't want to happen.

It gives a pretty false idea of possible benefits. I think people need to try the genuine article on their own system to get a true effect. (That was probably your intention anyway?? )

Still, I guess if people are keen they will try anyway.

Yes, nice test any way, Rob; I'll be interested to get the discs. Look forward to it.

I have checked out all sorts of cables, blind and sighted. When sighted, I could hear differences, when blind I could not. Ever.

So, being a logical sort of cove, I do not buy expensive cables. The Maplins ones are well made & work & sound just as good as the boutique ones, so why change?

Chris

 

[lbr]

Does anyone here actually know any blind audiophiles? Maybe we could just ask them if they can hear a difference.

 

[DavidF]

I have checked out all sorts of cables, blind and sighted. When sighted, I could hear differences, when blind I could not. Ever.

So, being a logical sort of cove, I do not buy expensive cables. The Maplins ones are well made & work & sound just as good as the boutique ones, so why change?

Chris

Absolutely non if they don't work for you or your system!

Totally agreed.