I-S
Good Evening.... Infidel
dat - hence my use of the words "contends" and "if we accept the premise". My point being that the article was contradicting itself if we took everything stated therein as true.
Why you can never 'win' with Mana
- Thread starter The Devil
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dat19
blind test terrorist
Sorry, I was paying too much attention to the "Fair Enough", and concluded you were agreeing with the premise.
To be honest, I was hoping someone would try to provide a supporting argument for microphony/DAC's -- mostly because I need a laugh.
naim seem particularly enamoured with microphony, presumably to stiff the customer for their admittedly pretty, but shockingly expensive, fraim.
Alex S
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There is a Mana effect. To my ears and to many others its not neutral. So you either like it or not. That's why you can't win every time. The effect is not subtle. Each time you add a level, or in my case remove one, the sound improves dramatically. Hence the passion and the disbelief that you can like or loath the stuff. Often it is badly set up but to claim that all those who don't like it can't set it up is just silly. I note that that silliness realised, it is my room which is now blamed for my Mana results. Certainly it helps under speakers if your speakers are slow or flabby, especially if your room's crap.
A strange thing is that most Mana enthusiasts loftily claim that others who experiment with boxes, mods, leads, mains, fuses are just tweakers yet they spend more time worrying about Mana tune than all the other tweaks put together - 8 bloody spikes to get perfect, then the frame itself, then the glass - one lump or two, or six, is your floor wooden or concrete, or not? All that is a good enough reason for someone like me to get Hutter, level it, leave it.
Paul McCartney uses Mana under his bass amp? What an endorsment!
Nonetheless, try it, but try it against something else decent like the Hutter. Most people who bleat on endlessly about the joys of Mana have graduated from some crappy support like QS, Ash, Toonmade, Base, SO, Fraim. No wonder they're impressed. I can't think of anyone who's ditched Hutter in favour of Mana but plently have done the reverse.
And I think Mana looks great.
A strange thing is that most Mana enthusiasts loftily claim that others who experiment with boxes, mods, leads, mains, fuses are just tweakers yet they spend more time worrying about Mana tune than all the other tweaks put together - 8 bloody spikes to get perfect, then the frame itself, then the glass - one lump or two, or six, is your floor wooden or concrete, or not? All that is a good enough reason for someone like me to get Hutter, level it, leave it.
Paul McCartney uses Mana under his bass amp? What an endorsment!
Nonetheless, try it, but try it against something else decent like the Hutter. Most people who bleat on endlessly about the joys of Mana have graduated from some crappy support like QS, Ash, Toonmade, Base, SO, Fraim. No wonder they're impressed. I can't think of anyone who's ditched Hutter in favour of Mana but plently have done the reverse.
And I think Mana looks great.
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Datty Boy I'll bite on this one
As your a 'pro boy' 
I take it most of you requipment is racked ? on big rigs stood in seperate control room?OK, all of the dac's/dac pre's I own (about 8) benefit from being supported/isolated from external vibration interaction (vis siemic sinks, air decoupling), this brings traits to the sound I like.
Now internal microphony, the wadia kit is built well, 16mm solid ally carcass, 4 to 6 layer curcirt boards, independantly isolated via seperate ptfe washers etc, now the psu is isolated also, all wires are suspended, so a lot of attention to detail is given in this area, now short of fitting a seis-mometer on the board while it's running I can't prove one way or another. However what I can state for sure, is that after application of 'Cromilin' constrained layer damping, (A croma-alloy material, with a annerobic bonding agent, that converts vibrations to heat, which is dissapated through the croma-alloy upper layer)
The sound does improve in a audio detectable way, further improvement can be made by use of Dynamatt or similar product.
It does have an effect Datty, theories about, but it does what it says on the tin. Wm
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/rise44.htm
Dev
Moderator
Thank God for that!, now can we forget about that four letter word and discuss real HiFi
The Devil
IHTFP
Steven, the musicworks leads sound the same as the Naim ones to me. I was given them, and see no reason to change them. Synergy with what?
Hi Alex, how do you know that one support is 'neutral' and another isn't? When are you coming up?
You can't blame Mana for Sir Paul's choice of notes!
Regards,
James
Alex S
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Hi too James,
Mana did this in my system: increased dynamics, speeded things up, timed just fine, played the tune, increased some detail and clarity, turned some mid-bass into deep bass, emphasised the leading edge at the expense of the rest of notes. The combination had more pros than cons but was not strictly neutral to my ears.
Hutter did this in my system: enabled all the equipment to sound just as it did on the floor only better (see points 1-5 above). I am happier with this balance, neutral or not. It sounds more integrated (rather than more like an integrated) even if I trade a few losses.
Mana is far and away the second best support I've tried and I quite understand how for many its the best. For me, Mana is the best thing under speakers (any advice to the contrary you can ignore, including mine). I feel very uncomfortable agreeing with Mick with regard to the Hutter/Mana thing and am still trying to cope with the fact. I differ from Mick in thinking that Mana is value for money (you can break down the cost of anything hi-fi and criticise the actual cost in parts) and I think it looks great, especially multi-level.
Alex
PS did you get my email?
Mana did this in my system: increased dynamics, speeded things up, timed just fine, played the tune, increased some detail and clarity, turned some mid-bass into deep bass, emphasised the leading edge at the expense of the rest of notes. The combination had more pros than cons but was not strictly neutral to my ears.
Hutter did this in my system: enabled all the equipment to sound just as it did on the floor only better (see points 1-5 above). I am happier with this balance, neutral or not. It sounds more integrated (rather than more like an integrated) even if I trade a few losses.
Mana is far and away the second best support I've tried and I quite understand how for many its the best. For me, Mana is the best thing under speakers (any advice to the contrary you can ignore, including mine). I feel very uncomfortable agreeing with Mick with regard to the Hutter/Mana thing and am still trying to cope with the fact. I differ from Mick in thinking that Mana is value for money (you can break down the cost of anything hi-fi and criticise the actual cost in parts) and I think it looks great, especially multi-level.
Alex
PS did you get my email?
The Devil
IHTFP
Alex, yes I got it & replied, something isn't working somewhere...I'll phone you in the old-fashioned way.
This made me snigger "far and away the second best support I've tried..."
This made me snigger "far and away the second best support I've tried..."
From a different perspective...
Alex, it's not a case of not being able to set it up as a result of ones lack of dexterity, but rather not being able to set it up optimally in the absence of any 'set' criteria apart from the most obvious basics. For example, how does a Mana novice know exactly what tension to use on the spikes or the note to listen out for when tuning the glass shelves? Those (and many other things) are absolutely crucial to ensure Mana performs optimally and really only come with experience.
It's the reason why, in my opinion, the best way to promote Mana is to sell it though selected dealers (or?) trained in how best to set it up. They would then professionally install Mana supports in the homes of their customers. Trouble is, you can't trust dealers to get the installation right, or to sell someone a stand instead of a box when it's obvious it's a stand they want! I think that's part of the problem, but it's of course up to JW how he runs his business. I'm just trying to allow others to view your argument from an alternative perspective.
I totally agree with you. It's something I've mentioned to the likes of James and others on numerous occasions, but they don't want to know. I think it's illogical and counterproductive to advocate the benefits of optimising one area of a system and at the same dismiss optimising others as practically worthless, describing it as 'tweakery' or 'dicking about'. I'm as meticulous about ensuring my Mana supports are optimally set-up as I am about any other area of my system. Why not take advantage of all combined benefits? Everything contributes to the final result, and if you want to hear your music at its best, it's absolutely crucial.
Alex, you give up too easily!
Didn't Dev do just that? Or did the Hutter come after his Mana? It's confusing because he's had more racks than hot dinners
Marco.
Alex, it's not a case of not being able to set it up as a result of ones lack of dexterity, but rather not being able to set it up optimally in the absence of any 'set' criteria apart from the most obvious basics. For example, how does a Mana novice know exactly what tension to use on the spikes or the note to listen out for when tuning the glass shelves? Those (and many other things) are absolutely crucial to ensure Mana performs optimally and really only come with experience.
It's the reason why, in my opinion, the best way to promote Mana is to sell it though selected dealers (or?) trained in how best to set it up. They would then professionally install Mana supports in the homes of their customers. Trouble is, you can't trust dealers to get the installation right, or to sell someone a stand instead of a box when it's obvious it's a stand they want! I think that's part of the problem, but it's of course up to JW how he runs his business. I'm just trying to allow others to view your argument from an alternative perspective.
I totally agree with you. It's something I've mentioned to the likes of James and others on numerous occasions, but they don't want to know. I think it's illogical and counterproductive to advocate the benefits of optimising one area of a system and at the same dismiss optimising others as practically worthless, describing it as 'tweakery' or 'dicking about'. I'm as meticulous about ensuring my Mana supports are optimally set-up as I am about any other area of my system. Why not take advantage of all combined benefits? Everything contributes to the final result, and if you want to hear your music at its best, it's absolutely crucial.
Alex, you give up too easily!
Didn't Dev do just that? Or did the Hutter come after his Mana? It's confusing because he's had more racks than hot dinners
Marco.
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Yes, but you know you're not very good at discerning differences with things that don't involve Mana
They don't (actually) sound the same, but we'll humour the notion in the meantime...
How about they're crap with Naim gear outside of a QS Ref/MusicWorks block set-up?
See above.
Marco.
The Devil
IHTFP
C'mon Marco, reveal all.
I've done the mains thing, yes it makes an improvement, but small in the overall context. Do you think more is always better?
I've also done the cable thing, again small in the overall picture.
I refuse to nerd about with plug & socket hierarchy.
You forget that you are a serious-music-lover (TM) at heart, and most certainly, definitely, absolutely not a hi-fi geek at all, no siree.
Re: From a different perspective...
Actually Marco some of the current dealers have more experience in both studio and domestic reproduction than this whole forum put together, and they reckon it's shite! So I guess they are useless as marketing tools, just as many reviews are when you realise that the authors are now using far better forms of equipment support.
FWIW, Mana is like a designer drug (without the designer bit!). Addicts need their fix, but many intelligent people recognise what it is doing after a while and wean themselves off. Sadly some just keep coming back for more. For them there is no hope. For them, it's a life of lying around the house uttering those immortal words "just ONE more layer man! then it'll be OK!" Sadly as the hit from that extra layer fades to become a distant memory, the user seeks solace in the knowledge that he can source another hit soon from his main man JW.
Hey kids! Just say No!
Actually Marco some of the current dealers have more experience in both studio and domestic reproduction than this whole forum put together, and they reckon it's shite! So I guess they are useless as marketing tools, just as many reviews are when you realise that the authors are now using far better forms of equipment support.
FWIW, Mana is like a designer drug (without the designer bit!). Addicts need their fix, but many intelligent people recognise what it is doing after a while and wean themselves off. Sadly some just keep coming back for more. For them there is no hope. For them, it's a life of lying around the house uttering those immortal words "just ONE more layer man! then it'll be OK!" Sadly as the hit from that extra layer fades to become a distant memory, the user seeks solace in the knowledge that he can source another hit soon from his main man JW.
Hey kids! Just say No!
The Devil
IHTFP
Merlin, if that's true how come my system sounds so good? What supports are better in your experience than phase nine Mana?
phase 10 mana?
No Idea to be honest James! I suspect phase 10,11,&12 would sound better but to be frank I really don't care.
I rate the support very far down the list of priorities these days, my experience suggesting that they all screw up the sound in one way or another, it being a matter of personal preference which you like.
Having said that, after it's been playing for a couple of months, they all sound the same anyway, the differences being just that rather than improvements in most cases. Give me an Ikea table and an extra 50 albums any day sir!
The Devil
IHTFP
If you don't care and don't know, why are you posting this stuff?
I've already told you why I think so in an earlier post. The commercial advantages for them advocating the use of only one spur are probably realised daily in the Naim sales department.
No, you've done about a tenth of the 'mains thing'. Installing one single spur is a mere canapé ââ'¬â€œ you've yet to sample the main course. James, you're only at Phase 1 Mana with your mains set-up.
Well it certainly applies to some things I can think of hi-fi related... James, the only reason the improvement you heard was small is because, like I say, you've only scratched the surface.
My, that is a surprise! You've tidied up that shambles of wires at last? Did you do it properly though?
Marco.
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