Another pointless Mana debate

The Devil said:
Merlin, so far you've posted two different theoretical models in this thread. The first stated that bass gets less as you raise a speaker, the second contradicts this. Can we have a final position from you, just so we know?

The room measures about 27 feet by about 18 feet (20 or so into bay window behind speakers) by 13 feet. Does this help at all?
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James, the two statements are in fact correct - you have simply misnterpretted them. There is a difference between boundary reinforcement in this instance and the affect of room modes.

What is the distance to the side walls from the centre of the bass units? This might well help further ;)
 
Paul R,
The error was corrected in the 1993 remaster 'Live in Japan', and it sounds awesome here (even for a digital beer spinner)
I think you were too quick to jump on Ak, he was just trying to give an example (properbly got Tone tied trying to put into words)
I also have plenty of recording where drums and guitars are off kilter to the genine stage preformance, blame the micking and the mixing engineer
 
paul,
my problem is with the statement (and this is only an example) 'the atc's are the most accurate speakers' and it's ilk. there is a whole list of qualifications to this statement that make it meaningless (i.e. in my room, with my ears, using my pre, and my source and my cables, and mains , etc...).
perfect reproduction may be an absolute goal however, the routes there are many and varied and there are no universal solutions as have been touted in this thread.

add to this the fact that most of those here weren't in the recording studio at the time their record collection was recorded and the claim of 'accuracy' soon becomes as meaningless as a linnies or naimies cries of 'musicality and prat' and others cries of 'slam or presence'.

ultimately if you like what product xyz does then great, bully for you, recommend it all you want but don't claim magical properties like it being a panacea for all audio woes. you'll just get peoples backs up and they scramble for the chance to push your champion product off it's pedistal.
cheers


julian
 
WM.
The point was about 'bass' being in the centre, which, IME, is seldom the case. The Purple thing is an example. The error's been preserved on the 1998 CD remaster, FWIW.

Julian,
'the atc's are the most accurate speakers'
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I've never made that statement. I doubt James has.

However it's definitely true to say that big ATCs are much more accurate than most of what pass for 'hifi' speakers. And accuracy must be equivalent to hifi. 'Musicality' is just another word for it, albeit an obfuscatory one.

Paul
 
A long time ago two men wrote a song

Seems quite pertinent here:

I had a little gramophone;
I'd wind it round and round,
And with a sharpish needle
It made a cheerful sound.

And then they amplified it;
It was much louder then,
And you sharpened fibre needles
To make it soft again.

Today for reproduction
I'm as eager as can be;
Count me among the faithful fans
Of High Fidelity.

High Fidelity! Hi Fi's the thing for me
With an L.P. disc and an F.M. set
And a comer reflex cabinet,
High Frequency range
And down with Auto-change!
All the highest notes, neither sharp nor flat:
The ear can't hear as high as that,
Still I ought to please any passing bat
With my High Fidelity.

Who made this circuit up for you anyway? Bought it in a shop? What a horrible, shoddy job they fobbed you off with. I'm surprised they let you have it in here! The acoustics are all wrong. Raise the ceiling four feet, put the fireplace from that wall to that wall, and you'll still only get the stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard. What a horrible shoddy job they've fobbed you off with ... ! You've got your negative feedback coupled in with your push-pull input-output; take that across your red-head pickup to your tweeter, and if you're modding more than eight you're going to get wow on your top-try to bring that down through your rumble filter to your woofer. And what'll you get? Flutter on your bottom!

High Fidelity! F.F.R.R. for me!
I've an opera here that you shan't escape
On miles and miles of recording tape;
High decibel gain
Is easy to obtain;
With the tone control at a single touch
Bel Canto sounds like Double Dutch.
Then I never did care for music much
It's the High Fidelity!


MF: This is a good moment to explain that we don't normally have these things standing around here, but tonight they are recording this, stereophonically in fact, for posterity. So, wherever you're sitting now, it'll be where you'll be on the record. Sit up nice and straight, if any of you feel like rolling in the aisles or being carried out helpless with mirth, this is a jolly good night to do it. Do you want to say hello to posterity?
DS: Hello!
MF: Hello, Posterity. If we move around a bit, they'll use it for demonstration purposes.
 
Paul,

I've obviously missed this one out, can you give the catalogue number for it please.
The preceptual place the bass appears from does change with each recording, some cuts more obvious than other G3 Johnsonn 'zap' the drum solo is in an arch across the upper centre of the stage a good 3 to 4 feet from the centre of the soundstage.
Yet on track 7 Vai, its firmly in the middle, with the bass 'preceptualy emminating from line directly through your line of listening (front of stage).
Either way its sound sodding good, it is possible to raise the stage of the speakers with out moving them (or raising the cone axis in any way) or changing amps too
 
Oh dear! Hifi nerd alert!

To be honest, unless you have heard that album on a Tact system, you are nowhere near understanding the staging of the recording ;)
 
Dev,

yeah I know :D

But seriously for a minute, if you listen on most setups you can argue about the position of the various instruments until the cows come home.

Listen on a tact setup, and you are there at the gig. It's difficult to explain the difference but live recordings replayed without the influence of the listening room really do take on a different dimension. Pink floyd's "Pulse" is another good example.
 
I'm afraid I had the displeasure of that at heathrow this year, although the presentation aspects may have been impressive, the preformance and soul of the recording had been removed by force and throttled through a series driver manipulational correction techiniques that had rendered Mr Vai to playing in a sterile clean room with the emotion pedal switched off, but with a beautiful image and almost 3d staging, great for Quote Ju 'Noddling jazz' & Nora Jones efficenardo's.
Forgive my ignorance Its been long day Mike, and another 1664 will help matters no end
 
WM,

It's this one.

I'd be interested in 'merlin's' view of the staging. Especially bearing in mind it's a close miked rock recording. But they've made an effort to get the drums sounding good.

Paul
 
Thanks Paul,
The Live in Japan, Robinson & Glover did a good job on it, but you have all 3 nites to choose from, though Osaka (2nd nite) is generally regarded as the best, The quality of the recording and the band raw energy shine, first nite they we knackard, Tokyo on the last nite was good in places.
Strange kinda of woman (Osaka) is superb. Who did the 98 remaster?
 
analoguekid said:
where did Andy and I ask for you opinion on how we can improve on something that we are already happy with, and even if we asked for your advice, what makes you think you are correct all the time, did you ever consider that you may be wrong.
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My point is that if you are happy, why do you care what I think?

[I think that, secretly, you are not too happy with it..]

And no, I have never said that ATC actives are the most accurate speakers in the world. This is because I haven't heard all the speakers in the world. But they are much more accurate than the overstyled rubbish that is pushed as 'hi-fi' these days. I know how good they are because, well, if you listen to them, it's blindingly obvious. And also because of Alan Ball's recording session.
 
Did the **** forum boys send you over to help out Mr Villified Fox?
I'd agree on the Most of the £30K stuff paint drying at best, but willy waving? in Bubitt's case pot/kettle/black
"sounds utterly fantastic through my HiFi", nothing like a trumpet blowing to ease the nite away sir
 
Paul Ranson said:
WM,

I'd be interested in 'merlin's' view of the staging. Especially bearing in mind it's a close miked rock recording. But they've made an effort to get the drums sounding good.

Paul
Click to expand...

Paul, I cannot explain the differences properly, but, had you heard what I did you would understand.

Regardless of the mic setup used, the Tact allowed you to hear the auditorium in all it's glory. I very much doubt that WM is talking with any really experience in the matter - a brief exposure in unfamiliar surroundings does not make for a valid judgement IMO.

I used to listen to both the DP album and Pulse regularly when a Tact owner. Never heard a system get close I'm afraid, and that includes those I have heard in the cheltenham area ;)
 
But Fox given that you obviously have similar tatse then thats the kind of response we can expect from you, I said the "the soundstage was no better than on a £100 ghetto blaster, and for what it's worth if you had heard my system which prolly cost a lot less than you and Bubbitt paid for yours, then you could make a comment regardinhg it's sound, as you haven't you can F**K off. T

he Polite boring ones are people like James who insesantly rattle on spouting same old drivel, even when you tell them thats not your point of view they still don't get it, the sad thing as that they really can't see that others also have a point of view and it's different from his, so you like the sound of each others kit, wow, you think you have found the answers, well let me suggest it's you lot that are the BORES.
 
Live at the YMCA is a top record. My favourite CV is still the first album, Mix Up.

AK, you do seem to be getting ever so exercised.

-- Ian
 

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