Are the London members OK?

[I-S]

I don't want to have to close this thread. This thread was started out of concern for the well-being of other forum members and their friends and families.

The acceptable use policy still applies and I would request that people keep things civil and with appropriate language. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

 

[T-bone Sanchez]

Im in agreement with penance, as for as we know members and their family & friends seem okay. Im only 20 mins from manchester and know alot of people who live and work in machester and I can vividly remember the IRA bomb, it numbs you. I feel for those who are based in London.

I dont think a new thread should be started, we will all have strong feelings about this and things could be said that cant be taken back.

 

[GAZZ]

Having been near a bomb attack in warrington it makes you numb inside. My heart goes out to the families of the victims, injured aswell whos lives will never be the same.

 

[Dev]

Glad all the London guys seem OK.
has anyone heard from Lilolee? (he is London based?)

Just spoke to Lee, he's OK.

 

[penance]

Good

Is that all present and accounted for?

 

[analoguekid]

I thought of asking our more artistic members to design a t-shirt with the British two-fingered salute -
Anyone?

for steve

 

[SCIDB]

Hum, they reduce the threat status, ok it was still high, but I feel we got complacent, the "it'll never happen to us" feeling. They moved far to many police and security up to Scotland and left London unprotected.

We have lived in a low security enviroment for ages. We don't get searched for a lot of thing and a lot of places. Even if the extra police were not in Edinburgh, you can't fully gurantee against the acts happening. Do they search people going on busses or the under ground? No. Anybody could be a terrorist.

Though by al-Qaeda standards this is a small scale attack, which leads me to beleive that either it was just a warning shot or that many devices didn't go off and we're, quite rightly, are not being told about it.

Maybe they don't fully know yet. It is hard to say at this stage.

What is worried is that MI5 and such like are saying they had no intel about this. Heck what are we paying them for???

MI5 & the likes know a lot but they don't know everything. Terrorism is not easy to deffend against. There has been been many acts of terrorism over the centuries all over the world which have never been fully picked up until it's too late.

I mean bomb making equipment can't just be picked up at yoru local DIY store surely they have some clues??? Beggers beleif.

yes it can. making a bomb is not rocket science. There is plenty of info out there to make bombs and do other nasty things. You don't even need GCSE Chemistry. You can cause damage with easy to get hold of household items.

I hope they catch who ever is behind these attacks, but whats more worrying is that we'll probably left them off because of some lefty "human rights cr@p" or something stupid thing like that.

Are you saying that we pick up someone and don't give them a fair trial? Bang them up anyway because they look quilty. At end of the day, if people are caught and they are quilty, they should be punished.

You need to find people guilty on evidence and not fear or hearsay. The cornerstone of our law is that you are innocent till proven guilty.

Sorry I just feel angry about what has happened and that we appear to be very soft on criminal in this country so that anyone can get away with this kind of monsterous act. Where is the deterrent????

The USA is harsh on criminals yet it has seen a lot of terrorism. You need to get into your head that hardline terrorists are not scared of deterrents. They believe in causes and the publicity of the terrorists acts.

Anyone could be a terrorist or a crazy person. History is littered with them.


SCIDB

 

[lhatkins]

Thanks SCIDB, I appriciate your comments, at least your comments where more informative and worthy of a reply.

We have lived in a low security environment for ages. We don't get searched for a lot of thing and a lot of places. Even if the extra police were not in Edinburgh, you can't fully guarantee against the acts happening. Do they search people going on buses or the under ground? No. Anybody could be a terrorist.

No you can not search everyone, just not practical with the volume of people. But this sort of thing takes organization, they must have communicated, found a way to plant and detonate the bombs, maybe the first thing they should do is jam mobiles from buses and trains, I mean they're annoying enough in public anyway, that would prevent that method of destination. Little things like that, I don't have the answers, I don't pretend to, just need to understand what can or can't be done.

MI5 & the likes know a lot but they don't know everything. Terrorism is not easy to deffend against. There has been been many acts of terrorism over the centuries all over the world which have never been fully picked up until it's too late.

Like I said above, they must have planned this, used electronic means to communicate, so GCHQ should have picked this up, this is what they're there for, to scan websites, emails phones, for information leading to evens like this, prevention is better than cure, like I said, I think we got of lightly, Spain lost over 180 people, which led me to believe that this was a small scale attack or that other bombs where defused, like I said before I don't have information, just comparing motives.

yes it can. making a bomb is not rocket science. There is plenty of info out there to make bombs and do other nasty things. You don't even need GCSE Chemistry. You can cause damage with easy to get hold of household items.

But they say these where not house hold bombs they where high explosives, Centex (spelling?) etc, now you can't pick that up at B&Q, so someone is supplying the stuff and getting it into, or making in, this country.

Are you saying that we pick up someone and don't give them a fair trial? Bang them up anyway because they look guilty. At end of the day, if people are caught and they are guilty, they should be punished.

You need to find people guilty on evidence and not fear or hearsay. The cornerstone of our law is that you are innocent till proven guilty.

The USA is harsh on criminals yet it has seen a lot of terrorism. You need to get into your head that hardline terrorists are not scared of deterrents. They believe in causes and the publicity of the terrorists acts.

Anyone could be a terrorist or a crazy person. History is littered with them.
SCIDB

No No No, certainly I'm not suggesting we pick up anyone at random or pick on a religion. I totally agree with you that we need to go though the proper court procedure and find people guilty on evidence, But what tends to happen here is we find someone guilty though the courts, then they get let off on a technically. Look at the Lockibly bombing, how long did it take to get a conviction, and now they're appalling, the "shoe bomber" he could have killed 250 on that plan, got what 15 years, so in 7 (on good behavour, etc, etc) he'll be free to try it again, its stories like that that makes my blood boil.

This situation is different it seems these people can not be reasoned with, if we withdraw from the middle east, iraq, we are seen as weak and we've given in to violence, if we don't we get more attacks, rock and hard place. Or is the middle east/iraq just a front, at least the IRA came to the table and the violence that stopped, I don't know what we can do with these lot, just don't know what they're problem is.

Maybe we should take the bury our heads in the sad approach, ignore them long enough and they'll go away.

Thanks again SCIDB, at least there are a few on here I can have a sensible debate with.

 

[auric]

Originally Posted by lhatkins
This situation is different it seems these people can not be reasoned with, if we withdraw from the middle east, iraq, we are seen as weak and we've given in to violence, if we don't we get more attacks, rock and hard place. Or is the middle east/iraq just a front, at least the IRA came to the table and the violence that stopped, I don't know what we can do with these lot, just don't know what they're problem is.

I'd like to try and take this point a bit further and suggest that the situation in the Middle East/Iraq may well be a reason for attacks upon London, Madrid & Bali but it I do not think it is the only reason or for that matter it may not even the main reason for these attacks. I get the distinct feeling that this attack could well be seen as one aimed at picking apart the multistranded culture that is London because people for the most part live cheek by jowl with the resulting mixing of thoughts, ideas and in many cases famalies. This mixing can be seen as a backwards step by some and a way of life that should and indeed must be punished wherever it challenges the perceived orthodoxy as supported by those perpertrating the attacks. These attacks are attacks in support of conservatism and the old way of life, they are against free thinking and for want of a better phrase "new order", they also feel their power and control slipping away as their beliefs are openly flouted and questiond on the streets of London each and every day.

The bombs at Edgware Road and Aldgate East struck deep in the heart of populations that are free thinking and are evolving in to the very societies that the bombers detest hence the punishment bombings. Now what better way to deliver a punishment than to link the reason to something else? So at this moment in time why not link it to the Middle East/Iraq in the hope of giving their slayings a portion of legitimacy?

AN ATTACK ON ARAB LONDON. via prospect.org
Militants target barbers of Baghdad via The Guardian

 

[SCIDB]

Hi Lee,

Thanks for the comments. It is easy to get upset by things like this but a level head is needed.

Thanks SCIDB, I appriciate your comments, at least your comments where more informative and worthy of a reply.

No you can not search everyone, just not practical with the volume of people. But this sort of thing takes organization, they must have communicated, found a way to plant and detonate the bombs, maybe the first thing they should do is jam mobiles from buses and trains, I mean they're annoying enough in public anyway, that would prevent that method of destination. Little things like that, I don't have the answers, I don't pretend to, just need to understand what can or can't be done.

These acts do usually take some organisation. But the various bodies may not know about it. There is a lot of info on the many terrorist factions but you can't know about all of them all the time. If we could, we could stop all terrorism.

Banning phones wont be the answer as there are many way to set off bombs.

There is a number of things that can be done but it is no gurantee to stop all terrorism.. The services are better equiped to deal with terrorism and the aftermath.

Like I said above, they must have planned this, used electronic means to communicate, so GCHQ should have picked this up, this is what they're there for, to scan websites, emails phones, for information leading to evens like this, prevention is better than cure, like I said, I think we got of lightly, Spain lost over 180 people, which led me to believe that this was a small scale attack or that other bombs where defused, like I said before I don't have information, just comparing motives.

You can spy on peoples' electronic communication but you need to know who to spy on. Also there are many forms of communication that can be used including word of mouth. Prevention is always better than cure but terrorism can be hard to defend against.

But they say these where not house hold bombs they where high explosives, Centex (spelling?) etc, now you can't pick that up at B&Q, so someone is supplying the stuff and getting it into, or making in, this country.

My main point was that weapons of terrorism can be made very easily and it is not easy to spot. True, it seems the weapons used were plastic explosives, maybe Semtex. The thing with Semtex and other plastic explosives is that it is easy to smuggle.

Semtex was develop in the old Czechoslovakia and sold around the world. It was used by various countries for military and domestic uses. Lybia bought 700 tonnes of the stuff which some went to various terrorist organisation. Also some was sold on the black market. No one fully knows were it all has gone.

Semtex has a very long shelf life. It can be bent, shaped, cut because it is like playdoh. It is very stable and can be used over wide range of temps and underwater.It was for a long time, hard to detect. No one knows how much Semtex or plastic expolsives are in this country. You don't need much to cause havoc.

No No No, certainly I'm not suggesting we pick up anyone at random or pick on a religion. I totally agree with you that we need to go though the proper court procedure and find people guilty on evidence, But what tends to happen here is we find someone guilty though the courts, then they get let off on a technically. Look at the Lockibly bombing, how long did it take to get a conviction, and now they're appalling, the "shoe bomber" he could have killed 250 on that plan, got what 15 years, so in 7 (on good behavour, etc, etc) he'll be free to try it again, its stories like that that makes my blood boil.

Taking people to court can be a time comsuing process that why you need to get your case and evidence sorted.

If you mean Richard Reid, the Shoe Bomber from England, I think you will find he got sent down for life. He is in a top security jail in the USA called Supermax. He may have a chance of parole after, I think, 60 years.

The prison sounds grim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence



Thoughts should go out also to the people who are waiting to hear of news of their loved ones who are still missing.




SCIDB

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

hmm, yes partly true, banning phones wouldn't stop it, but would take a significant method used by them out of their armoury. That seems to have been the main means they use to detonate their bombs. It may make life a lot harder for them to wreak their havoc.

That fascinating doc., the power of nightmares gave an interesting insight, that muslims who had been 'diluted' were fair game to be attacked. There was a lot more that I can't quite recall atm.

I suggest the death penalty, no prison sentance can give justice for this(or any murder for that matter), it clearly wouldn't be a deterrent tho'. Criminals suffer worse fates under muslim law. They should be considered fair game for elimination as they are effectively commandos of a perverted sort, engaged in a military op.

must've been terrible, those images are heart wrendering....

 

[Will]

The death penalty would only serve to make them martyrs, hardly a good idea surely given the high status amongst extremist circles given to those who martry themselves in the name of this Jihad? I think lifetime imprisonment (and I mean lifetime, no chance of parole or release) is the best option personally.

 

[johnhunt]

if these individuals are caught, and i hope they are , they have to be tried and punished within the constraints of the systems that we are trying to defend. that means no death penalties,summary executions etc. but a life sentence in , no doubt, a very hostile place.

 

[7_V]

I'd be tempted to resort to the death penalty, castration, torture or whatever hurts most but I know full well, as we all probably do, that johnhunt is absolutely right.

 

[lhatkins]

if these individuals are caught, and i hope they are , they have to be tried and punished within the constraints of the systems that we are trying to defend. that means no death penalties,summary executions etc. but a life sentence in , no doubt, a very hostile place.

Agreed, the death sentence would give them what they want. I, like others, would like the punishment to fit the crime but my worry is, in the system we live in, there are appeals, technicalities and even if they do go to prision, its not like prisions in other countries, ours are more like long stay hotels, sky tv, pool tables, etc. (ok before you start up john, no I've never been inside, but I have read reports on uk prisions and I also read what prisions are like in other countries, I saw the film/documentory about the plane spotters and what Greek prisions are like for example).
No ok so don't kill them, but what about putting them to good use, repairing roads, laying rail track, digging tunnels, bomb disposal (ok sorry but could resist it) very tightly gaurded of course.

As for preventing further attacks, I beleive they use dogs at airports to sniff out drugs and bombs, could they use the same tactic on the UG? Ok it will not be 100% but surely if they see that dogs are about they might think twice? If they think that there is highly likely they'll be caught they might not do it? Just a thought.

 

[7_V]

As for preventing further attacks, I beleive they use dogs at airports to sniff out drugs and bombs, could they use the same tactic on the UG? Ok it will not be 100% but surely if they see that dogs are about they might think twice? If they think that there is highly likely they'll be caught they might not do it? Just a thought.

I'm sure that they must be considering such things.

I remember reading that wasps can be 'trained' to detect certain smells. Apparently they have an incredibly sensitive sense of smell. I wonder what progress they're making in that area.

Development and Deployment of a Biological Sensor

Of course plain clothes police with (the right looking) sniffer dogs would be virtually unrecognisable. Just give them a pile of 'The Big Issue' to carry.

 

[johnhunt]

good idea - sniffer dogs on the underground. need a hell of a lot of them make a real difference so probably not.

Lee i read your other points and you seem to be saying that your worry with our judicial system is that there is some err justice and that we treat our prisoners like something approaching human beings.

I like your idea about mass murderers doing community service though.

 

[I-S]

Of course plain clothes police with (the right looking) sniffer dogs would be virtually unrecognisable. Just give them a pile of 'The Big Issue' to carry.

Plus it's a more socially acceptable way of supplementing the force's income than speed cameras...

 

[Cloth-Ears]

Everyone is assuming it was "Islamic extremists" . But we don't know. I think it was the French.

 

[lhatkins]

Everyone is assuming it was "Islamic extremists" . But we don't know. I think it was the French.

hehe na its not their style, anyway their passiveists.