Do cables make a difference ?

[anon_bb]

Then those two cables must not have been electrically equivalaent, i.e. different lcr characteristics. This of course will interact with amp and speakers in known and well quantified ways - though the effects can be small. Noone is disputing that - its solid engineering. Same as tonearm cable capacitance makes a clear difference. That isnt what is being argued here.

 

[notaclue]

A DBT does not have to be ABX. You could listen to cable A then cable B (manually switched) then say which was which. If you like, you could repeat this test over 10 days thus giving you 20 trials.

I'm not saying that everybody could pass a cable DBT but surely somebody could if it were possible? Surely after years of subjective claims of (sometimes massive) cable differences ("if you can't hear it, you must be deaf") we should be able to find one person who could prove that copper and silver, for example, sound different?

It is not up to 'science' to bother to find out. It is not up to science to bother to find out if it possible to run 100 metres in under 9 seconds. It is up to 'believers' to find a method of proof and present that to science.

Uri Geller claims to bend spoons. Should 'science' (whoever he might be) devote time to research how people are able to bend spoons with their mind or should Uri Geller first demonstrate to science his ability to bend spoons under controlled conditions? Gee, I wonder which is the most sensible option...

Let's take a practical example saab used earlier. Copper and silver. Subjectively we often see claims that silver is brighter and more detailed. Let's take two identicaly constructed interconnect cables - but one silver (or silver plated copper) and one copper.

Let's say that science will say that it is impossible for somebody to hear any difference between those two cables. Yet our cable believer says that the silver cable is defintely more detailed, transparent blah blah. And he can hear this.

Now the competing claims come before a righteous and sensible judge. Science could spend years trying to refute the claims of the believer yet the believer will still claim to be able hear the difference. The believer will only accept the evidence of his own ears.

Therefore, the sensible thing is to put the believer to the test - to prove the claims via a controlled listening test. And should the believer pass the test, science will, of course, accept that it was wrong and will accept that it is possible to hear the difference between copper and silver.

Yes? Do you see? The only way forward is for someone who can hear differences to prove it. Just as the only way forward in deciding if it is possible to run the 100 metres in under 9 seconds is for someone to run it.

 

[Effem]

I am.

That is the msot irrelevent argument I have ever heard. People used to all beleive the world was flat and everybody bought maps showing the world was flat. Yet the idea was wrong and all the millions of maps that were sold were wrong and the millions of people that beleived it were wrong. Snake oil was always a hot seller.

People dont return cables as most people dont test them they just walk in plonk the money on the table and buy them with the system. Hifi is littered with examples of overpriced garbage that people queue up to buy.

The argument you have presented is the entire reason the overpriced cable fallacy exists - coupled with basic human nature and a quick study of cable markup. It says nothing about whether or not cables do make a difference.

That isn't a reasoned or cogent argument either.

All cables WILL make a "difference" and to prove that theory I will make you a cable in two minutes flat that you wish you had never plugged in I'm being flippant now and apologise in advance for that.

The point is though, start at the other end of logical thinking and suddenly it all makes sense. Is the average manufacturer going to put a top flight hand built precious metal superconductor into the box along with their product so the product will perform at it's optimum straight out of the box? The answer is a resounding "NO" because the manufacturer cannot afford to do it. It surprises me even now when manufacturers are having such a hard time selling kit that they even include something like a £0.10p interconnect and a £0.10p mains cord to get you going when the economies of scale would mean a saving by not doing so. What quality level is this £0.10p interconnect and £0.10p mains cord? Adequate is my answer, so there is room for improvement already. Should the punter then splosh out £1,000 for a replacement interconnect and power cord? The answer again is a resounding "NO" because £1,000 worth of cable does not bring 10,000 times the improvement and I think this is the real bone of contention with the sceptics, not the fact that the £0.10p cable cannot be improved upon - which it can.

 

[anon_bb]

Yes it is - as I said LCR does make a difference and if you construct a cable with anomalous vales of these or with compromised earths etc then of course it will sound different. That is fully in line with my argument. If I have a cable and you make a workable equivalaent with the same lcr I bet they will sound the same.

I am unable to discern what you are trying to say in the final paragraph - could you restate?

 

[notaclue]

The best proof of all is already in place if you ask me; the combined cable sales of all the cable makers worldwide
...
We can almost safely assume therefore that the 90% or greater that do not get returned are kept because some benefit was derived from them. Balance that against the tiny minority of those folks that say cables cannot and will not make a difference and the sheer numbers overwhelm the sceptics many fold. Who is brave enough to say that all those MILLIONS have been comprehensively hoodwinked into believing that a perceived difference was noted by the recipients when in objective fact there was none?

Sheer numbers are not sufficient. We need to work it out using 'good science'. As I shall do below...

Think of all the scientists in the world who will say that people cannot hear differences beyond what can be measured. As they are 'cleverer' than the average cable buyer, a scientist gets a coefficient of 750,000. A cable buyer gets a coefficient of 0.5. Thus one scientist negates the claims of 1.5 million cable buyers.

Sorry, Effem, your figures just don't add up. Science would win quite comfortably.

 

[Saab]

Then those two cables must not have been electrically equivalaent, i.e. different lcr characteristics. This of course will interact with amp in speakers in known and well quantified ways - though the effects can be small. Noone is disputing that - its solid engineering. Same as tonearm cable capacitance makes a clear difference. That isnt what is being argued here.

Lol,so why argue about it? Why argue that 2 cables that are the same sound the same when no one knows which are the same,but somehow,the ones that sound different are assumed to different?

You say its solid engineering,Notaclue says it isn't.

 

[Effem]

Yes it is - as I said LCR does make a difference and if you construct a cable with anomalous vales of these or with compromised earths etc then of course it will sound different. That is fully in line with my argument. If I have a cable and you make a workable equivalaent with the same lcr I bet they will sound the same.

I am unable to discern what you are trying to say in the final paragraph - could you restate?

Well then if you agree that manipulating LCR values in a cable can make an audible "difference" then what do you think the cable vendors are doing? Exactly that, so where is your argument that there can be no differences in a cable design? That to me is a contradiction in terms and 90% of this debate is therefore invalidated.

Where I believe this debate needs to be firmly grounded is putting things into correct perspective. Those who talk about "night and day differences" are suffering from semantics and over enthusiasm with what they are perceiving IMHO. There are indeed real "differences" yes, but they are small and subtle no matter how much you pay for a cable, not everyone is capable of hearing those differences, so the acid test of this argument is:-

a) Is the recipient hearing these "differences". (I will return to this is a moment)

b) Is that "difference" the recipient is hearing enough to warrant the purchase of that cable for whatever it costs?

Real or imagined, it's up to the individual to decide whether to purchase or not, as at the end of the day that is the one and only person the cable has to satisfy.

NOTACLUE has said that he thinks the the sonic differences between copper and silver wires cannot be discriminated and indeed the scientific community says that silver is only 8% more conductive than copper and the sound level difference is less than 2db, so that is discountable as far as they are concerned. I have been blind tested (without my knowledge at the time) on the differences between copper and silver cables yet I picked them out unerringly by their unique signature which I'm told does not exist. I can also detect when sooper dooper wires are being used in a strange system I am completely unfamiliar with, as I did at last years Bristol Show. I have done quite a few successful blind tests too. Does that make any difference? None at all because the sceptics are as fervent in their non-belief as the believers are in their convictions, so none of what I have written makes the slightest difference to their stance and probably never will no matter what proof is furnished.

This debate will go as far as any other that I have participated in, but nevertheless it is interesting to exchange views for other people's perspectives on the subject.

 

[Effem]

Yes it is - as I said LCR does make a difference and if you construct a cable with anomalous vales of these or with compromised earths etc then of course it will sound different. That is fully in line with my argument. If I have a cable and you make a workable equivalaent with the same lcr I bet they will sound the same.

If these effects of altering LCR values are producing KNOWN variances in the perceived sound of a cable, then I'm surprised no smart cookie cable vendor hasn't invented yet a cable with tone controls.

Now there's a thought . . . . . . . . .

 

[notaclue]

I have been blind tested (without my knowledge at the time) on the differences between copper and silver cables yet I picked them out unerringly by their unique signature which I'm told does not exist.
...
so none of what I have written makes the slightest difference to their stance and probably never will no matter what proof is furnished.

All else being equal with a cable, if you are saying you can hear the difference blind between copper and silver then that would make you the first person in the history of mankind to do so as far as I know, i.e., I haven't seen any positive blind tests where somebody was able to pick out the difference between copper and silver.

"never will no matter what proof is furnished." Simply not true.

We need to see the results of a verifiable, properly conducted blind test. Then I (and any other sensible person) will accept that 'science' was wrong. That we can hear things that science says we cannot.

I am not saying your blind test was not properly conducted but you must realise that we cannot simply assume and accept it was given the total lack of any other verifiable blind test to back up what you say.

I am in a similar situation. I can run 100 metres in 8.2 seconds. Yet when I applied to the join the British Olympic team they didn't accept this and wanted me to show this to them. Absurd! I told them it was their loss and Britain had lost a 100% certain gold medal...

As I have said, I have heard differences between cables. I believe it is entirely possible I have imagined them. It is up to me to decide whether I feel purchasing more cable is a worthwhile thing. It is not up to me to decide whether the differences are definitely real or imagined. That requires proof. And proof is totally lacking at the moment.

 

[Effem]

All else being equal with a cable, if you are saying you can hear the difference blind between copper and silver then that would make you the first person in the history of mankind to do so as far as I know, i.e., I haven't seen any positive blind tests where somebody was able to pick out the difference between copper and silver.

"never will no matter what proof is furnished." Simply not true.

We need to see the results of a verifiable, properly conducted blind test. Then I (and any other sensible person) will accept that 'science' was wrong. That we can hear things that science says we cannot.

I am not saying your blind test was not properly conducted but you must realise that we cannot simply assume and accept it was given the total lack of any other verifiable blind test to back up what you say.

I am in a similar situation. I can run 100 metres in 8.2 seconds. Yet when I applied to the join the British Olympic team they didn't accept this and wanted me to show this to them. Absurd! I told them it was their loss and Britain had lost a 100% certain gold medal...

As I have said, I have heard differences between cables. I believe it is entirely possible I have imagined them. It is up to me to decide whether I feel purchasing more cable is a worthwhile thing. It is not up to me to decide whether the differences are definitely real or imagined. That requires proof. And proof is totally lacking at the moment.

You haven't seen published details of blind tests between copper and silver cables because none to my knowledge have ever been carried out.

The hi-fi wigwam forum test for blind testing is going on right now I believe. This involves disguised kettle leads and sooper dooper leads together being sent round to members for individual blind testing in their own homes and on their own systems. Not perfect by any means but I see it as a step forward from the Nordost debacle.

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

And the argument has become perfectly circular Oozlem Bird style. But carry on Gentlemen.

Oh and for those still banging on about LCR only, please remember other parametres exist and may by non-linear. But I'm done, no point whatsoever to continue.

Ciao T

 

[zanash]

Effem..........

I think you've got something there.

Night and day ..normally means you can tell straight away [for me]

Notaclue...make that the second coz I've been doing it too.

I recon there are a number of other people out there that might disagree with you.

I run two cables side by side from the twin outputs of my cd player ..using a remote for the preamp I can switch instantaneouisly back and forth .....differences are obvious. your welcome to come over and have a listen.

The differences between silver and copper [sonically] are relatively obvoius. Less obvious are the differences between two cables using the same conductors but different topologies.

Intrestingly I built two 3m cables for a chap, one copper one silver both 0.5mm solid core twisted pairs same plugs same solder same dielectric. These were very difficult to tell a part, there were differences but it was extremely hard to pin down what they were.



In fact, tell me why do the cable sceptics not use the freebie cables ? There ready to tell every one that theres no difference ...but low and behold when you look at what they use its never the freebies! Or "oh the dealer throw these in when I bought the CDP".

I have here in my hand a freshly built pair of Type 1 silver cables and a brand new set of freebies.....

Which cable sceptic would like to compare them ? This is a no strings offer, just so long as I get them back ...I'll even stump up the postage [As long as your not in Timbukto as they need to be sent special delivery]......First to pm gets the chance.

 

[ditton]

The hi-fi wigwam forum test for blind testing is going on right now I believe. This involves disguised kettle leads and sooper dooper leads together being sent round to members for individual blind testing in their own homes and on their own systems. Not perfect by any means but I see it as a step forward from the Nordost debacle.

what the first wigwam cable test helped to clarify was that (1) our measuring instruments (those that do the listening and the comparison between un-labelled cables) are fallible. This is unsurprising, not least as every type of measuring instrument has some error, and (2) that we should have some repeated measurement (based on records of the same thing mesured by the same instrument) in order to understand the characteristics of our measuring instruments. pheww.

So perhaps we should have some study of listener variability on some thing that is night and day, and then, as nights draw in, we can play in the twighlight of small differences.

 

[notaclue]

The differences between silver and copper [sonically] are relatively obvoius.

Do you believe you could get 16 or more correct identifications out of 20 in a blind test in your own system? ABX or AB swapping?

If so, why not take up this challenge - http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/msg/d6940ef8f28c7902 - and win £1,000.

Do you think it is possible to do this?

 

[Stereo Mic]

Notaclue,

out of interest, do all aftermarket cables exhibit the same frequency response +/-0.1db 20hz to 20khz?

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Do you believe you could get 16 or more correct identifications out of 20 in a blind test in your own system? ABX or AB swapping?

If so, why not take up this challenge - http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/msg/d6940ef8f28c7902 - and win £1,000.

Do you think it is possible to do this?

Let me be completely unequivocal and blunt.

I can set up an ABX or DB Test that I can make to return whatever particular result I want, in the simplisitic fashion in which they are conducted as long as I have a reasonable indication of the subjects bias.

I MUST note that it is easier to attain null results, but the opposite is not that much more difficult to do.

Note that the outcome of these tests would be independent from any actual conditions in the test, it is only statistics, as long as the differences are relatively small and as long as they are likely to result in emotional responses by the subjects.

Of course, the results of any such tests are useless and pointless. Of course, if my tests where sufficiently widely publicised no matter how pointless the results, I am sure ton's of people who prefer to jump on bandwagons over thinking for themselves would be quoting my results in perpetuity...

Ciao T

 

[notaclue]

Notaclue,

out of interest, do all aftermarket cables exhibit the same frequency response +/-0.1db 20hz to 20khz?

3,456 do but 1,759 do not... Honestly! How am I meant to know?

The point of the challenge is that the challenger is saying that the only difference between, say, speaker cables in a given system is their frequency response. Match that and a £1 per metre cable will sound the same as a £1,000 per metre cable. I imagine that a standard figure-of-8 copper cable and silver cable would measure within 0.1 db. Thus if you can hear the difference between copper and silver (which, we are told is "relatively obvious"), here is a great opportunity to win £1,000.

3DSonics said: "I can set up an ABX or DB Test that I can make to return whatever particular result I want"

OK. Contact Stewart Pinkerton and set one up to return 16 or more correct identifications out of 20. Collect £1,000. Let us know when you've done it.

"Of course, the results of any such tests are useless and pointless."

The result of the above test will be £1,000. £1,000 is not worthless. Obviously.

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

3DSonics said: "I can set up an ABX or DB Test that I can make to return whatever particular result I want"

OK. Contact Stewart Pinkerton and set one up to return 16 or more correct identifications out of 20. Collect £1,000. Let us know when you've done it.

You don't get it, do you. As Stewart who controls the test protocol. Remember, this all about statistics, he who controls them controls the outcome.

"Of course, the results of any such tests are useless and pointless."

The result of the above test will be £1,000. £1,000 is not worthless. Obviously.

No, it will still be worthless. And SP would not let me apply my own statistical tricks as he has already has his own he needs to apply to avoid paying out....

Remember, he is scottish.

Ciao T

 

[rod]

Remember, he is scottish.

OI !

 

[notaclue]

As I understand it, the whole point of an ABX/DBT is that it random - what you listen to is randomly selected, thus it is a true test of the listeners hearing, and hearing alone.

3DSonics, first, do you believe that it is possible for sonic differences to exist between two level matched speaker cables that measure within 0.1db from 20Hz to 20Khz in a given system?

You say one thing, Stewart Pinkerton says another...

Second, would you be willing to put up £1,000 that you could organize a DBT where you do acheive 16 or more passes out of 20? You control the test protocol, you pay up if you fail and get less than 16. I'm imagine, if so, Stewart Pinkerton or other Google audio group members may be interested in this.

At the moment, that is where Stewart Pinkerton holds the upper hand. He is putting his money where his mouth is, as they say.