Do cables make a difference ?

[ditton]

As I understand it, the whole point of an ABX/DBT is that it random - what you listen to is randomly selected, thus it is a true test of the listeners hearing, and hearing alone.

to say again ('cos its part of statistical method), its not enough that there is random allocation of 'treatment', its necessary to have repeated measurement of the same treatment to the same subject as the subjects are our measuring instruments.

 

[Leporello]

Remember, this all about statistics, he who controls them controls the outcome.

You certainly have an interesting view about statistics. What exactly is it in the suggested r.a.h-e. test protocol that would let this happen?


Regards,

L.

 

[Stereo Mic]

The point of the challenge is that the challenger is saying that the only difference between, say, speaker cables in a given system is their frequency response. .

Well what a revelation!

I could have told you that years ago. It doesn't make the answer to the "do cables make a difference" into a no though surely?

 

[Effem]

What I do mostly fail to comprehend is that there is always such heated debate and furore about cables yet there is so very little about other hi-fi components.

Over a great number of years I cannot recall any hi-fi component that has made me jump for joy with a "night and day" sort of difference and it has always been very subtle for me the differences between a £100, £1,000 and £10,000 cd player, likewise for amplifiers, to a lesser degree speakers. Yes there are nuances and subtleties between them all and it's for me only to decide whether that extra sparkling treble or deeper controlled bass justifies the extra outlay - everyone else should mind their own business is what I say. The last pair of speakers I owned measured wonderfully, enjoyed by many countless other owners no doubt, but they sounded less than pleasing to me.

Everything in hi-fi is relative and what we sorely lack is a reference point by which all else is judged. When I read a glowing review in a magazine about a bit of kit I get no indicator where it fits into the grand scheme of things and words like "performs above it's price bracket" and "betters it's competitors at half the price" means nothing at all to me and that same lack of reference in the cable market is what causes so much controversy when the makers all to a man say theirs is the best thing since sliced bread, which in stark reality is no different to what amp, CD and speaker manufacturers say, but I cannot recall such passions aroused as there are in cable debates.

It is indeed the lack of objective measurements with cabling that leaves the underbelly exposed to critics who enjoy digging into such things and making a sport out of it - I use that word carefully. The industry has only itself to blame and I make no excuses or present any form of defence for that, but that isn't an excuse either for cynics to use nonsensical statements and relying on weak scientific data to say it's all untrue. The ONLY difference in my mind between the two camps is that the cynic has the option of walking away from the debate without any penalty and let the audiophools get on with being in their words "conned" yet they never do so. Why?

 

[notaclue]

Well what a revelation!

I could have told you that years ago. It doesn't make the answer to the "do cables make a difference" into a no though surely?

So do you believe that anyone who hears a difference between speakers cables that measure within 0.1db from 20Hz to 20Khz is imagining it?

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

As I understand it, the whole point of an ABX/DBT is that it random - what you listen to is randomly selected, thus it is a true test of the listeners hearing, and hearing alone.

You clearly do not understand.

IF (and there if is one my points) the subject has no expectation what they will hear and IF (and there is another of my points) the test is implemented without pre-weighting the results by having more same or more different presentations then we attain sensible and usefull results, within the limits of the statistics applicable to dataset. Of course, a better analysis than the "black/white" preferred by parlour tricksters would be a confidence intervall, but that would run counter to their aims.

3DSonics, first, do you believe that it is possible for sonic differences to exist between two level matched speaker cables that measure within 0.1db from 20Hz to 20Khz in a given system?

I believe nothing. I have no use for the religious mode of thought. I do know for a fact that frequency response is not sufficient to charaterise an audio system sufficiently for percieved sound quality.

You say one thing, Stewart Pinkerton says another...

As allways. There are different understandings of what goes on. Please read my recent thread on HiFi & Philosophy (which was moved as supposedly non-topical).

Second, would you be willing to put up £1,000 that you could organize a DBT where you do acheive 16 or more passes out of 20? You control the test protocol, you pay up if you fail and get less than 16. I'm imagine, if so, Stewart Pinkerton or other Google audio group members may be interested in this.

No. I'm not even interrested to spend any time on it.

If I control the statistics my test would have datasets, implementations etc different from SP's, out of neccessity, as I would be determined not to produce with a high degree of reliably null results, but the opposite.

However, I have no interrest in what amouts to intellectual forgery and fraud, I'll leave that to those who wish to engage in suhc behaviour. I have better uses for my time.

At the moment, that is where Stewart Pinkerton holds the upper hand. He is putting his money where his mouth is, as they say.

He puts his money "there" about the same way (but with better odds for him) as any gambeling establishment. I'd not call that "putting his money where his mouth is".

But as you say, views differ. Any charlatan will have those that march along to his pipe, you are welcome to follow whomsoever you want to, though quite frankly it is my considered opinion that you would be better off doing your own serious research if you want actually know, as opposed to repeating some religious dogma.

Ciao T

 

[greg]

All else being equal with a cable, if you are saying you can hear the difference blind between copper and silver then that would make you the first person in the history of mankind to do so as far as I know,

"The first person in the history of mankind" how over dramatic.

i.e., I haven't seen any positive blind tests where somebody was able to pick out the difference between copper and silver.

Have you seen any blind tests specifically between copper and silver?

 

[zanash]

Offer taken up ..............

 

[notaclue]

zanash, you have taken up the Pinkerton challenge?

Excellent! Well done! I understand that nobody has even taken the challenge, rather than people having taken it and failed.

This could be real progress in the 'cable debate'. Much credit to you.

I am sceptical about cables, not a confirmed 'unbeliever' but sceptical. I will certainly change my mind should you succeed.

 

[zanash]

Err...what are you taking ?

Does it distort reality that much ?

Reread the thread and you'll see which offer was made.

Pinky's a plonker and nearly as bad as Randi pandy...

 

[Stereo Mic]

So do you believe that anyone who hears a difference between speakers cables that measure within 0.1db from 20Hz to 20Khz is imagining it?

I've never seen cables measured in such a way? Have you?

 

[notaclue]

Err...what are you taking ?

Does it distort reality that much ?

Reread the thread and you'll see which offer was made.

Pinky's a plonker and nearly as bad as Randi pandy...

So despite the fact that the differences between silver and copper are "relatively obvious", you are turning down the chance to win £1,000?

Is no believer prepared to take up the £1,000 blind test challenge?

 

[zanash]

Read the small print....to the tests. Its so restrictive and weighed in favour of the organisers it not a true and level challenge.

More simply you could have taken up my offer .....why didn't you ?

Were you affraid you may have heard something to suprise you ? and all for the cost of return postage. I think that speaks volumes.

Don't forget that I was a cable sceptic.....back when Qed 79 strand first reared its ugly head. I thought it was not possible for a bit of wire to make any noticable difference to the sound. Sometime a little pride swallowing is cathartic for the sole.

 

[michaelab]

In fact, tell me why do the cable sceptics not use the freebie cables ?

They do.

There ready to tell every one that theres no difference ...but low and behold when you look at what they use its never the freebies!

Yes it is.

Or "oh the dealer throw these in when I bought the CDP".

If the dealer threw them in then they are, by definition, freebies.

 

[bottleneck]

I use a length of 5m orange lawnmower power cable as an interconnect between my DVD/SACD player to the amp.

It was used on the mower for a good 10 years, so comes with FOC customised green grass tint

Im quite proud of it really.. I dread to think what a 5m pair of shop bought interconnects would have cost me.

 

[zanash]

Michealab....yep got me there !!

 

[Stereo Mic]

If the dealer threw them in then they are, by definition, freebies.

Tell you what Michael, I need some speaker cable.

Given that you use Ocos, how about you send it to me and I'll send you some stuff I'll get up at John Lewis? Do a swap for a month or two. What length is it you need.

Now here's my quandry. Your cable did not cost you anything. I therefore presume you are happy to just give it away? If you aren't, then you attach value to it and yet, despite stating that it offers no benefits whatsoever, continue to hold onto it whilst it's worth depreicates.

That doesn't strike me as the kind of behavior we would expect from a financially astute person such as yourself Michael.

 

[michaelab]

Your cable did not cost you anything. I therefore presume you are happy to just give it away?

No. Why would I want to give away something that has monetary value? That wouldn't be very financially astute at all.

Michael.

 

[anon_bb]

cable shmable

Saab - if you alter the lcr of course it will sound different, but not very much if at all. This is well understood in engineering and well quantified and has little relevence at audio frequencies generally - like the skin effect. But that isnt what cable manufacturers claim. They claim two cables with identical or near identical lcr can sound very different and that more expensive cables will be better for the same lcr. Within reasonable limits even cables with differing lcr will sound exactly the same in most systems. If you read more carefully notaclue and I are in agreement.

Effem - see above. It is largely irrelevent - in extreme cases it will make a small difference - in tonal response only - in certain setups. It will neither be good nor bad - just like an extremely weak tone control. Certainly nothing like the cable proponents claim, which has nothing to do with lcr. There is no contradiction.

"he scientific community says that silver is only 8% more conductive than copper and the sound level difference is less than 2db" - rubbish.

What nonlinear cable parameters did you have in mind 3d? If we consider earthing as a seperate issue. Where is the hifi and philosophy thread?

Noone has mentioend the d self summing amp approach for objective cable comparison? Which demonstrated no difference objectively between two cables one bellwire and the other high end cable. ho hum

 

[Stereo Mic]

Why would you want to keep something of depreciating value when it offers no benefits? Why not sell it - that would be the sensible thing to do. Then invest the money more wisely.