HIFI+ slates web forums

Seems like the boy is biting back :) everyne should be given the chance for airing their views, on both sides, maybe RG can't bear the thought that prople may view his articles with anything other the total belief :D
Mind you, I feel other forums as well as Z/g may have contributed to his words in the months publication ;)
 
Well,i suppose of he is referring to the deliberate "pedaling" of one product by someone with a vested interest in an other product and this entails criticising other products,then maybe he has a case,but he could have stated that clearly,he didn't,so imo he was having a little dig at the internet for being able to get away with what he can't ie a nil pwa review

instead he compares forum users to drunks, a horrendous thing to say,i think i will sue



in fact i bet many freelance journalists would love to say "product x is a pile of s**t and so crap i turned it of after 3 milliseconds",but of course they can't they wouldnt get employed again
 
it may also be a sly swipe at david price who just had a specially tweaked version of some marantz cd player delivered to him by ken ishiwata - the model even caries his initials and is splashed over the front cover of hi-fi world - cost to us mere mortals, the origional player + 1k ukp.
that said hi-fi plush's olofactory wonders aside hi-fi world does seem to be the most open minded of all the mags out there with decent diy and computer audio sections and by far the best ads section. shame about their vinyl affliction though ;)
cheers


julian
 
Only one good one

Chaps

Let us be realistic, nearly all of the hifi journalists are just puffed up windbags out to scrounge a bit of kit. They can hang on to something for a couple of months and then get something else.

The only one that I have any respect for is Paul Messenger. The others are just scribes. No knowledge just opinions.

Regards

Mick
 
in fact i bet many freelance journalists would love to say "product x is a pile of s**t and so crap i turned it of after 3 milliseconds",but of course they can't they wouldnt get employed again
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I actually got very close indeed to writing a column for a certain audio mag a few years ago, but I dropped out once I realised I would be subject to very strict editorial control so as not to upset advertisers, some of whom I considered to make truly appalling products! (I won't name the mag).

There is far more freedom and diversity of opinion on audio forums, and this definitely frightens the audio mags ââ'¬â€œ they fully realise that we are the future and in a few years they will be totally obsolete. Who are you going to believe a reviewer pushing a product with a full page advertising spread or a real punter who has shelled out their hard earned on something. Add to this the many manufacturs and electonics professionals who contribute to forum dialogue and actually answer your direct questions and it truly is game over. I rest my case!

Roy Gregory really hates internet forums (I've met him on several occasions and he has told me this at least once each time!), I strongly suspect he can see into the future - not everyone wants to pay a fiver a month for what is effectively a glossy advertising brochure when far wider and less commercial viewpoints are available freely elsewhere.

Tony.
 
Tony

Yes he likes Naim as do most normal punters. I respect his views on speakers which seem to be based on knowledge and experience.

Regards

Mick
 
Re: Tony

Originally posted by mick parry
...he likes Naim as do most normal punters...
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:confused:

sorry to the point - I do get the feeling RG may well be responding to the name specific minor mauling he has recently received here. Funny.
 
Re: Re: Tony

Suppose I'll have to say something ...


Originally posted by greg
:confused:
sorry to the point - I do get the feeling RG may well be responding to the name specific minor mauling he has recently received here. Funny.
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If he read that he would laugh out loud ... but he doesn't read this forum or any of the others. He hasn't got time.

I guess he is replying to the sort of issues raised before where a certain sub brand was pushed hard. This is the general view of forums in the rest of the industry. You guys sure have a false opinion of your importance. Most of the audio industry also seems to think that the vast majority of posters aren't their real customers and having helped out in a shop I see where they are coming from. I would guess 90% of paying customers don't frequent a forum and those that do are infrequent posters not the hardcore. In a nutshell full of people with more opinion than knowledge who constantly try to run their product down but never actually buy any of it.
Personnnally I think this is a problem because the 10% that do post are proabbly the most enthusiastic enthusiasts, even though they tend not to spend a great deal of money. Don't believe me? How many audio professionals do you see regularly posting on these fora? If their really was something to gain wouldn't we see a representative from B&W, MF, Naim, Linn etc. here? Even Naim (whose forum has to the most commercially successful) keep their staff involvement to a minimum.

Funnily enough most of the industry (the big players at least) also looks at the magazines and their readership in the same way as the forums, ie. they are now a minority interest group, not the bulk of their brad and butter customers.


As to integrity, well that is for the individual to judge. But giving a good review just to borrow a box for a bit to paraphrase Merlin only makes sense if the particular box sounds good and if it sounds good then it deserves a decent review ... make any sense?


Mick,
Thanks for the praise.


Cheers

Jason
 
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:confused:

Rejoyce,

I don't know who you are, so as to the validity of your broad brush approach to 'how the industry feel' I don't suppose I should comment.

That said there have been occasions when prominent figures have spoken to forums direct, and I'm pretty sure there are far more examples where industry people get involved whilst retaining their anonymity. I recall not long back a thread involving John Dawson from Arcam, who replied a couple of times to a forum member (might have been on HFC actually) who had a specific Arcam related question. That for me is a great example of why forums are a good thing, and equally why they will become the norm rather than some subdivision of hifi culture.

Frankly it seems ridiculous that more of the industry don't address forums more regularly and openly, it's a great way to measure reaction, opinion and perception. Sticking your head in the sand is no way to object to an issue (if indeed that was the point of the last post)

I suppose the only danger is that by entering into the fray industry figures might feel a little overexposed and vulnerable, or be accused of shameless punting of their product, literary or mechanical. That may provide reason enough for abstinence from , but not derision of the forum concept.
 
Originally posted by rewster
That said there have been occasions when prominent figures have spoken to forums direct....
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I've seen several very informative and helpful posts from Nelson Pass (of Pass Labs fame) on (IIRC) A.Asylum. And then of course there were plenty of posts by Udo Zucker on the TAG forum...although I guess that may not now be considered an unequivocal plus.

However, while the enthusiastic posters probably spend a lot of money individually, it's probably not a high proportion of the total national/world HIFI spend, and certainly lower margin when viewed by manufacturers and dealers (as we'll go for a higher proportion of ex-dem/s-h deals). The only stuff I've bought new is the tweaks :rolleyes: , something I would never have contemplated before getting involved with these fora (although I would also have never contemplated more than £500 on a component).
 
If he read that he would laugh out loud ... but he doesn't read this forum or any of the others. He hasn't got time.
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so, if he's never participated in a forum, how is he qualified to comment on what goes on on them? the inference here is that he's just made it up for 'good' copy. does this happen with other things he writes?

i'd say your comments about bread and butter customers is true when it comes to mainstreeam brands such as pioneer, sony, etc. and even some more focussed brands such as arcam, nad and MF however i'd say that as the company gets smaller and the air more rarefied (and expensive) then people are going to do more research before they buy which means an internet search and likely as not a bit of a browse of a forum or 2. as Hi-Fi plush is catering to a 'higher end' audience i'd say there was a fair bit of overlap there.
as of overestimating our own importance, well, i think most people here realise that hi-fi is not the be all and end all of life, however it may seem to the contrary ;).
finally at the end of the day forums are filled with a number of people who post their opinions due to sheer enjoyment of both the hi-fi aspects as well as the community ones (when was the last time a bunch of guys got together just because they read a hi-fi mag?) the magazine guys are doing it as a job with all the baggage that brings, don't get me wrong i admire the stance that hi-fi plush takes, that they'll only review stuff that the reviewers enjoy however as it's ulimately about money doubts do tend to creep in given human nature.
cheers


julian
 
Originally posted by rewster
:confused:

Rejoyce,

I don't know who you are, so as to the validity of your broad brush approach to 'how the industry feel' I don't suppose I should comment.
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Rewster,

My name is Jason Hector and I am a part time writer for HiFi+. I work full time for a major consumer electronics company, I have been a part time retailer in a friends HiFi shop and have had some expereince in the custom install market. I would have this in my signature but other memebers accused me of trying to appear more important than them, sorry for the confusion.

My point wasn't that they were sticking their head in the sand, just that forums are well down on their list of important things to do.

cheers

Jason
 
graham,
even if you never buy new you are still putting money into some manufacturers pocket indirectly - unless the person you bought it from is doing a cookiemonster.
cheers


julian
 
I must admit when I read the editorial I was a little gobsmacked when I got to the part slating forums like this one.

If the industry pretty much ignores the forums then presumably he's barking up the wrong tree with covert threats that we'd all better watch out or else find out how good the industry's lawyers are.

There is a big difference between private individuals stating their (admittedly often insanely biased) opinions on forums like this and a concerted campaign by a person unknown to destroy a brand through the use of deceptive means like multiple postings under different names. If it were truly possible for this to happen, surely the industry would care mightily about what happens on the forums. The first is about individuals expressing honestly held opinions in an atmosphere of free speech, the second is dishonest. If someone were to do that then sue away, but don't paint the majority of us with the same brush, just because we sometimes might say things "The Industry" or perhaps more to the point magazine editors might disagree with.

Lets face it the forums are in a way balanced - for starters for almost every strongly held opinion in one direction there is almost always an equally strongly held opinion in the other.

PS. I thought it really took the biscuit when he published an utterly insane rant from someone on a forum as a letter in the readers section - presumably to prove we are all off our rockers.
 
Originally posted by julian2002
so, if he's never participated in a forum, how is he qualified to comment on what goes on on them? the inference here is that he's just made it up for 'good' copy. does this happen with other things he writes?
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I never said he didn't read some forums some of the time. I think he has been pointed to several over the years and much of the time the posts on some forums will reinforce the point that there are a lot of posters on a mission. I speak to a good number fo people who make the equipment we use and many of them hold the exact same opinion, not saying its right but I'm also not saying its wrong either.

Cheers

Jason
 
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stuff

I think there's two important points to make here.

1) Any industry that trys legal action against it's own customers is going to be in serious trouble. The National press would pick up on it and there'd be a public backlash (they'd think they were getting conned somehow). No-one likes a bully industry.

2) Many people (including myself sometimes) hear a component in a system that is not suited i.e. system matching. We all know what a mess you can get in with badly matched systems. If you take your opinion from one listen on one system you may get an inaccurate view of that product. From that point you slag it off until the day you hear it set up properly.

Cheers, Tim
 
Originally posted by Tim F


2) Many people (including myself sometimes) hear a component in a system that is not suited i.e. system matching. We all know what a mess you can get in with badly matched systems. If you take your opinion from one listen on one system you may get an inaccurate view of that product. From that point you slag it off until the day you hear it set up properly.

Cheers, Tim
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Thing is though, if you look back over all the posts on this forum - its very, very rare that anyone ever slags components off on this forum or indeed many of the others I frequent ... well except perhaps Naim gear ;) and sometimes the dear old LP12, but they have enough defenders to balance it out.

Magazines however frequently take a bashing :) If RG ever read the forums, then maybe that would explain it - but apparently he doesn't.
 


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