Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
My point exactly
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My point exactly
greg
Its a G thing
Re: Re: Re: Tony
Well as I said it was just a feeling, I could be wrong. However I do think the implications of recent comments here regards RG's/HiFi+' independence vis a vis Nordost were worthy of his consideration. If I were him I would have read them. It does seem oddly coincidental to me that a mention of forums was mentioned soon after.
I'm not digging at you and I'm not over estimating the importance of this forum or others, its just as a real customer and an individual who previously bought and read numerous magazines, I no longer bother with them because of their questionable content (IMO).
Well as I said it was just a feeling, I could be wrong. However I do think the implications of recent comments here regards RG's/HiFi+' independence vis a vis Nordost were worthy of his consideration. If I were him I would have read them. It does seem oddly coincidental to me that a mention of forums was mentioned soon after.
I certainly dont take the view that ZG is or should be of significance to "the industry" or to RG, its just the recent suggestions of bias toward Nordost and the cable debates generally ought to be of some relevance to RG. Funnily since this pro-Nordost bias was discussed here the bias seemed to get ever more obvious in HiFi+.
I think thats assumptive. IMO the internet and forums in particular represent an increasingly (past year or two) popular resource for "real customers" trying to compare and contrast things such as audio equipment largely because magazines are increasingly percieved as either limited or biased (IMO).
Sure there are plenty of these kind of people on forums, but the forum medium appears better at self-regulation than magazines. Almost the opposite could be said for HiFi magazines - a few people with more knowledge than opinion promoting products based on the financial (or other) incentives available - unjustified promotion is as bad as unjustified derision.
Maybe they are missing a free R&D opportunity? Naturally chaff and wheat would require some sorting.
I think thats a little short sighted. Out of interest - what are the touchpoints then that the big players connect their brands and concepts to their customers - if its not via forums and magazines - then where/how? HiFi/AV shows? Shop fronts? TV ads?
Well I don't believe its about journo's getting free/cheap high-end equipment. However I think you would probably agree it is hard to deny pressure is on reviewers to present "certain" products in the best possible light? Part of this is not to shine too bright a light on certain other competing products. Can you honestly deny why people might feel there is an over emphasis on Nordost products in HiFi+ (based on the combo of articles and substantial advertising)? I'm not asking you to agree there is, just whether you agree it could be seen like that by any sane human?
I'm not digging at you and I'm not over estimating the importance of this forum or others, its just as a real customer and an individual who previously bought and read numerous magazines, I no longer bother with them because of their questionable content (IMO).
Oh and Roy's ramblings about all things Nordost and Eben aren't then
Come on Jason, you make it seem like RG is so important that he is somehow above forums. The guy might spend his life listening to music, but he is almost certainly less busy than the majority of forum users, and probably has a lower basic income than many. Great system he's managed to put together on such a low wage! That Nordost stuff must have cost a packet
The simple fact is that RG has an agenda, that being to fullfill the requirements of his publications advertisers. If he manages to make a few quid along the way, even better. But his opinion is neither untarnised nor any more valid than many forum members.
If he is so busy forcing his head up his own passage to take part in forums, he is already showing advanced signs of being a dinosaur. Check out places like AA, the majority of Sterophile scribes and many reknowned manufacturers and designers post on there on a regular basis. Maybe little RG would feel out of his depth in such esteemed company
greg
Its a G thing
Incisive comment Julian.
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Re: Re: Re: Re: Tony
Mind you, Mr G got a serious savaging on another forum, which was more than the full measure shall we say
Mind you, Mr G got a serious savaging on another forum, which was more than the full measure shall we say
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Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tony
Hee hee, do you think the anti forum stance may have a lot more to do with opinions re magazines than manufacturers then? Perhaps?
Hee hee, do you think the anti forum stance may have a lot more to do with opinions re magazines than manufacturers then? Perhaps?
MartinC
Trainee tea boy
One big strength of internet forums is the access it gives newcomers to the field to many people with vastly more experience, and the oportunity to ask them for advice. With the exception of the odd letter that is answered, this is not something you can do with a magazine. If you buy one magazine you get reviews of the few items in that issue, with possibly some sort of very brief summary of recent reviews near the back; you do not straight off get access to all the knowledge of the reviewers, stretching back over a number of years. For the more budget conscious, magazines also of course have the understandable floor that they in general only discuss new purchases, whilst internet fora can give good advice on what is available 2nd hand as well.
Magazines can have advantages too of course. Magazine reviewers get the chance to listen to a wide range of equipment, for extended periods of time, without the pressure of having to choose to buy it or not. For those of us outside the trade this simply is not possible. For some fora posters there is always going to be the tendency to defend/promote equipment that you've chosen to buy, although I guess magazine reviewers may have the same trouble with their kit in their own systems.
It of course goes without saying that HiFi forums are great for the social aspect .
Martin
Magazines can have advantages too of course. Magazine reviewers get the chance to listen to a wide range of equipment, for extended periods of time, without the pressure of having to choose to buy it or not. For those of us outside the trade this simply is not possible. For some fora posters there is always going to be the tendency to defend/promote equipment that you've chosen to buy, although I guess magazine reviewers may have the same trouble with their kit in their own systems.
It of course goes without saying that HiFi forums are great for the social aspect
.Martin
leonard smalls
GufmeisterGeneral
I have absolutely nowt against HiFi+, apart from their sometimes appalling lack of proof reading (sorry Mr.G but occasionally it's not even up to Grauniad standards of spelling/grammar etc.) - I buy most issues..
Anyway, it seems to me that just about everyone has some small agenda and or beef to promote or shout about should the occasion warrant it:
With me it's the absolute fact (oh yes) that small speakers are shite, and there's no point having a bass driver that's less than 12"
With Mr. G, he appears to spout about the wonderfullness of Nordost Valhalla at every opportunity
Our own Merlin loves his sub-woofers, and WM loves to get in up to his knuckles in digital internals...
Either way, it's ultimately a case of each to their own, and in the case of opinions expressed on a forum (as that's what they are - it's Hifi FFS so there are no ultimate truths) it seems that shouting about the possibility of legal action to posters (didn't we have something similar during one of the ridiculous LimValve threads?) smacks of first order Kettle-Blacking
Anyway, it seems to me that just about everyone has some small agenda and or beef to promote or shout about should the occasion warrant it:
With me it's the absolute fact (oh yes) that small speakers are shite, and there's no point having a bass driver that's less than 12"
With Mr. G, he appears to spout about the wonderfullness of Nordost Valhalla at every opportunity
Our own Merlin loves his sub-woofers, and WM loves to get in up to his knuckles in digital internals...
Either way, it's ultimately a case of each to their own, and in the case of opinions expressed on a forum (as that's what they are - it's Hifi FFS so there are no ultimate truths) it seems that shouting about the possibility of legal action to posters (didn't we have something similar during one of the ridiculous LimValve threads?) smacks of first order Kettle-Blacking
TonyL
Club Krautrock Plinque
Let's turn the tables on that one: what exactly is a magazine reviewer and what knowledge or credibility do they bring to the task? It seems to me that most of them simply wake up one day thinking they had magically been transformed into some kind of 'expert' overnight and come to the conclusion they should make a living out of this wonderful god-given new talent.
The vast majority of audio reviewers I am aware of have no musical ability, no electronic design ability or knowledge, probably just a few years of fiddling about with home audio. At best they may have a little retail knowledge. In reality they are very much like the majority of people one finds on audio forums. The key difference, and it is a huge one, is that anyone who sets themselves up on a audio forum up as a self confessed 'expert' with so little of substance to back it up will be quickly and publicly laughed out of the room. Unfortunately many magazine reviewers never get to hear just how hard people laugh at the drivel they write.
Tony.
michaelab
desafinado
I just merged the other thread into this one and deleted the duplicate posts
Michael.
michaelab
desafinado
Just to address one point about most consumers not being forum participants. It's almost certainly true, but I bet that a lot of people who never post will do a browse around the various forums to get some opinions and those opinions, are generally rated far higher than magazine reviews or dealer recommendations because they come from real punters.
I would suggest that the forums have a larger influence than many people might think.
Michael.
I would suggest that the forums have a larger influence than many people might think.
Michael.
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
Eek. Don't tell them that, they might sue us.
ReJoyce
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Totally true and that is why most manufacturers and dealers berate the magazines about as hard as the posts here.
Most of the writers I know do have relevant experience outside of writing. Chris Binns for example is a professional recording engineer and session musician as well as electronics mender when he gets the chance. But your point is well made, that said I would sooner read an entertaining article from somebody that doesn't know which end of a soldering iron to hold than the tripe written by a fair number of super-objective engineers.
Have you read the Naim forum (or insert most other fora here) lately?
Cheers
Jason
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ReJoyce
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Thats justnot my experience. The majority of buyers are not, by definition, enthusiasts. Some may become enthusiasts after finding a forum but most don't. They buy some gear, they have it installed, they enjoy listening to it and if they feel like they have gotten value for money they might buy some more or recommend their friends to visit the relevant dealers. This could be proved very easily by wasting a few saturdays in a shop, I have done I many times.
Cheers
Jason
ReJoyce
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Merlin ...
>>> Oh and Roy's ramblings about all things Nordost and Eben aren't then
Not just Roy, most of the other reviewers who hear this stuff seem to be impressed as well including the eminent Binns who isn't hoodwinked lightly (see post above).
>>> Come on Jason, you make it seem like RG is so important that he is somehow above forums.
Not at all but how he chooses how to spend his spare time is surely his concern ... no?
>>> The guy might spend his life listening to music, but he is almost certainly less busy than the majority of forum users, and probably has a lower basic income than many. Great system he's managed to put together on such a low wage! That Nordost stuff must have cost a packet
He has built a system up over years buying at trade price I would imagine. He did spend 10 years at the coalface in retail in London and Salisbury. How many dealers do you know that have crappy systems at home? I actually know one but he has a young business so his gear got subsumed. As to his busyness well he is the editor and major contributor to the magazine and that does involve a serious amount of work. He definitely works more hours than I do for example.
>>> Check out places like AA, the majority of Sterophile scribes and many reknowned manufacturers and designers post on there on a regular basis. Maybe little RG would feel out of his depth in such esteemed company
Well I am not sure about the many or the regular bits in the above. Perhaps we should say several contributors have posted usually to try to clear up something factually incorrect and/or offensive?
Cheers
Jason
>>> Oh and Roy's ramblings about all things Nordost and Eben aren't then
Not just Roy, most of the other reviewers who hear this stuff seem to be impressed as well including the eminent Binns who isn't hoodwinked lightly (see post above).
>>> Come on Jason, you make it seem like RG is so important that he is somehow above forums.
Not at all but how he chooses how to spend his spare time is surely his concern ... no?
>>> The guy might spend his life listening to music, but he is almost certainly less busy than the majority of forum users, and probably has a lower basic income than many. Great system he's managed to put together on such a low wage! That Nordost stuff must have cost a packet
He has built a system up over years buying at trade price I would imagine. He did spend 10 years at the coalface in retail in London and Salisbury. How many dealers do you know that have crappy systems at home? I actually know one but he has a young business so his gear got subsumed. As to his busyness well he is the editor and major contributor to the magazine and that does involve a serious amount of work. He definitely works more hours than I do for example.
>>> Check out places like AA, the majority of Sterophile scribes and many reknowned manufacturers and designers post on there on a regular basis. Maybe little RG would feel out of his depth in such esteemed company
Well I am not sure about the many or the regular bits in the above. Perhaps we should say several contributors have posted usually to try to clear up something factually incorrect and/or offensive?
Cheers
Jason
Originally posted by michaelab
That said, I'll still buy HiFi+ - I like the smell of the paper
Michael.
And our lass told me I was an embarressment stood in WHsmiths Sniffing HIFI and other Glossy Mags
.It's nice to see I'm not the only one :shame: .
julian2002
Muper Soderator
mark,
i think you can actually get arrested for sniffing certain 'glossy magazines' in public.
overall i hope there is a place for both magazines and forums. they are both useful either for finding out about kit or for wasting a bit of time :shame: and should be able to co-exist happily however magazine writers should understand that thrusting themselves into the public spotlight and then evangelising about certain product is bound to attract the odd bit of flak and they should grow a thicker skin if they are to remain in their profession. throwing a hissy fit about it isn't going to help their cause.
conversely there is an awful lot of bollocks floating about on these fora and you need a pretty effective bs filter to gain any real insight unless of couse you ask at zero gain, the shining star that the audio industry follows.
cheers
julian
i think you can actually get arrested for sniffing certain 'glossy magazines' in public.
overall i hope there is a place for both magazines and forums. they are both useful either for finding out about kit or for wasting a bit of time :shame: and should be able to co-exist happily however magazine writers should understand that thrusting themselves into the public spotlight and then evangelising about certain product is bound to attract the odd bit of flak and they should grow a thicker skin if they are to remain in their profession. throwing a hissy fit about it isn't going to help their cause.
conversely there is an awful lot of bollocks floating about on these fora and you need a pretty effective bs filter to gain any real insight unless of couse you ask at zero gain, the shining star that the audio industry follows.
cheers
julian
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
Hi Jason,
Just wondering where magazine readers fit into this picture? Presumably they are enthusiasts. Makes one wonder why manufacturers bother advertising in mags.
Surely some mag readerships (HiFi+ and HFW for starters, though possibly enthusiasts for different things) do consist of enthusiasts (or maybe gadget porn addicts). Manufacturers advertise in these mags, so presumably they take enthusiasts a little bit seriously, if not their views.
ReJoyce
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Tony
>>> Well as I said it was just a feeling, I could be wrong. However I do think the implications of recent comments here regards RG's/HiFi+' independence vis a vis Nordost were worthy of his consideration. If I were him I would have read them. It does seem oddly coincidental to me that a mention of forums was mentioned soon after.
The copy would have been written before that thread arose ... at least I think so.
>>> I certainly dont take the view that ZG is or should be of significance to "the industry" or to RG, its just the recent suggestions of bias toward Nordost and the cable debates generally ought to be of some relevance to RG. Funnily since this pro-Nordost bias was discussed here the bias seemed to get ever more obvious in HiFi+.
See quote about percieved importance above ;->
>>> Out of interest - what are the touchpoints then that the big players connect their brands and concepts to their customers - if its not via forums and magazines - then where/how? HiFi/AV shows? Shop fronts? TV ads?
I think the big brands have a real problem in reaching their customers. As they try to penetrate the high-end lifestyle market they rub up agfainst the real masters B&O and their marketing budget alone probably equals Naims turnover! I think most of it is still done through the old HiFi shop model. And the big brands will reward dealers that reward them.
>>> However I think you would probably agree it is hard to deny pressure is on reviewers to present "certain" products in the best possible light?
I have never had any pressure applied to me to give a good review to something. The stuff I have liked I have written about positively - simple as that.
>>> Can you honestly deny why people might feel there is an over emphasis on Nordost products in HiFi+ (based on the combo of articles and substantial advertising)?
I can see where it is coming from but I am a little less cynical because I know the people involved, they are enthusiasts! They think the stuff is good. I will be trying some myself soon based on these peoples, whom I trust, recommendation.
Cheers
Jason
>>> Well as I said it was just a feeling, I could be wrong. However I do think the implications of recent comments here regards RG's/HiFi+' independence vis a vis Nordost were worthy of his consideration. If I were him I would have read them. It does seem oddly coincidental to me that a mention of forums was mentioned soon after.
The copy would have been written before that thread arose ... at least I think so.
>>> I certainly dont take the view that ZG is or should be of significance to "the industry" or to RG, its just the recent suggestions of bias toward Nordost and the cable debates generally ought to be of some relevance to RG. Funnily since this pro-Nordost bias was discussed here the bias seemed to get ever more obvious in HiFi+.
See quote about percieved importance above ;->
>>> Out of interest - what are the touchpoints then that the big players connect their brands and concepts to their customers - if its not via forums and magazines - then where/how? HiFi/AV shows? Shop fronts? TV ads?
I think the big brands have a real problem in reaching their customers. As they try to penetrate the high-end lifestyle market they rub up agfainst the real masters B&O and their marketing budget alone probably equals Naims turnover! I think most of it is still done through the old HiFi shop model. And the big brands will reward dealers that reward them.
>>> However I think you would probably agree it is hard to deny pressure is on reviewers to present "certain" products in the best possible light?
I have never had any pressure applied to me to give a good review to something. The stuff I have liked I have written about positively - simple as that.
>>> Can you honestly deny why people might feel there is an over emphasis on Nordost products in HiFi+ (based on the combo of articles and substantial advertising)?
I can see where it is coming from but I am a little less cynical because I know the people involved, they are enthusiasts! They think the stuff is good. I will be trying some myself soon based on these peoples, whom I trust, recommendation.
Cheers
Jason
ReJoyce
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I'm probably painting things too black and white. One thing to note though is the shift of Naims advertising budget away from the HiFi mags toward the lifestyle/gadget mags (they still get good reviews you will notice ;-> ).
The other thing to remember is that most of the brands make their money on the cheap stuff and his allows them the premuim ranges, I guess these need What HiFi advertising at least. But I'll bet they sell even more off of a T3 mention.
I'm buggering off now, have fun.
Jason
Cheers
Jason
