Nice Big Speakers

Analoguekid, HiFi Corner at the top of Leith Walk have had Quad ESLs in as I've listened to them on demo a few times when I've wandered in to look at bits of kit. Don't know if they've got any in at the moment as I've not been in for a while. Nice speakers, just a shame I don't have room for them .

Edited:

Oops got my hifi shops mixed up. It's HiFi Corner on Leith Walk that have the Quad ESLs. Loud & Clear do have electrostatics, I think they're the Martin Logan ones though.

 

Cheers Bl they are not for me Wolfgang is the one thats interested and alanbeeb recconed they could be had from hifi corner, esls prolly not bassy enough for my tastes, bsides I only just got away with the speeks in my avatar not sure if the missus would let me have 2 electric fires either side of fireplace, no matter how good they sound.

 

Sorry I think this is absolutely bullshit but this is my own opinion.

 

For organ music or Romantic-and-later-full-orchestral it's IMO essential to have respectable bass extension (say 30Hz or thereabouts, although obviously more is fine too ) to get anything approaching an idea of what it's meant to sound like.

 

Pete
interesting answer. I just spent over 2 hours this afternoon sitting near a german organist in a churchwhile he was practicing for his concert tomorrow evening. It was about 4 meters away from the organ and it was great but I must say now I have a slight headake.

cheers

 

Only Classical can do this,
It effects the parts of the hippo campus, that no other musical genere' can reach
Titain,
I've only heard 2 sub/sat packages that intergrate properly, both of which wern't cheap, the Time aligment option offers a lot of mere mortals a good stab at it.
Also your 'Monitors' are not virually full range electrostatics are they not?
The other big boy gear that gives this sort of preformance are horn loaded drivers, albeit in a colourfull & fun way if not totally accurate. T.

 

Titian,

you have four big speakers with two big subs so I don't think your reaction is fair based on that.

Also, your subs relay a full three and a half octaves before any crossover. Your subs were also specifically designed as part of the complete system. I think Neil is referring to the domestically popular small standmount + sub(s) arrangement where the subs cover only the bottom octave, and very rarely integrate convincingly.

I know Antonio is proud of the integration he gets with the Rel's, and it may be the case that they have both enormous headrrom and seemless integration. It would however be a first to these ears. What we do know is that Rels produce a substantial amount of THD anywhere near 20hz, which maybe explains why I hear of so many sadly dying prematurely.

We were having an interesting discussion today regarding time alignment. You really can hear it's effects when you know it.

 

Titian,

So, do you think that the typical sat/sub approach ie small mini monitors mated to a sub or two will have the dynamics and loudness capability of larger speakers with multi driver arrays?

You yourself use two pairs of monitors stacked up. Why is that? So that you can play louder by any chance?

I am not against sat/sub approaches per se (I used this approach for a long time) but the usual (i.e. sensibly priced) implementations have compromises just as big speakers do.

 

Guys,

:kneel:

I accept your points..

:kneel:

Can't stay for a long time this evening: the organist is coming back and we'll listen to a bit of music..

 

Paul,

Would you like to explain? By the way, the last time I pass by Kilmarnock, I try to see if I could find his shop but from the address given in the web it seems to direct me to the middle of a domestic housing estate. Does he run his business from home?

 

Robbo,

No one is talhing about sat/sub approaches, we all know those are weakish life style solutions...

My speakers are quite capable by themselves, 35hz low end, and very energetic at lowish frequencies, obviously they will be even more capable xrossed over at 60hz with a pair of good subwoofers handling the bass...

Even if my RELs distort some at 20hz, as Merlin insists, I am sure they will still be much better doing bass than most full-range speakers, including D100s, dont forget they have dedicated amplifiers connected directly...

As for time alignement, I dont think there is a problem with the subwoofers standing right behind each speaker, the wave length at those frequencies is so long, one foot shouldnt make much difference, after all at those frequencies we hear the reflections all mixed up with direct sound, dont we...

 

Lowrider,

I am talking about exactly the kind of sat/sub approach that you use and I used to use. Small monitor loudspeakers, whilst sounding very good for their size, are never going to have the total loudness and dynamic sound that a multi driver array loudspeaker has. Whats the max continuous SPL of your monitors? say 103 db. Big speakers are likely to be well in excess of 110 db. Thats my point, you are never going to get serious lifelike SPLs out of small monitors.

Do me a favour! Whats the cabinet volume of the Strata sub and how many drivers does it have? Now compare that to the cabinet volume of the D100s, and the bass drivers it has. There is really no comparison I am afraid. The D100s will totally destroy the Stratas.

With regard to integration, are your speakers ported? If they are, do you realise that the port and sub will be working out of phase and so you will get phase cancellation at certain frequencies and hence a lumpy bass response? This does wonders for the integration. Thats why I gave up trying to integrate a sub with the 1SCs.

 

Someone who thinks that the sub/mini monitor is better in absolute terms than really good big speakers has probably never heard a pair of JBL4343s (much less JBL4848s or Altec A7s).
Of course monitor/sub arrangements can work well in rooms where you couldn't get the JBLs through the door, but in absolute terms it is no contest I'm afraid.

 

Antonio,

the D100's use four custom 10" Volt drive units in a pair of fridge sized enclosures more suited to their capabilities. Being biampable, they will be powered by digital amps throwing out 500wpc into the 4 ohm load.

For comparison purposes, think 4 Rel Stentor 111's or Studios as being anywhere close. Then, as Robbo explained, you have none of the phase and time alignment issues that the Rels will introduce. The Volts are used to cover more than four octaves, something the Rels sadly cannot do.

Genuinely, there is no comparison.

 

I have to agree with the boys here, I chose large floor standers, for one reason only for total musical dynamic intergration, Oh and maybe they sound bloody awesome too Meadlark Blue Heron 2's, no better musical life, not ultra accurate, but man they sound sooooo good. a big floor stander too, not quite in the same league as Merlin's beasties, but they can shake the joint and then some
Superb Music makers

 

I didnt say my system can play as loud as the D100s, at least in a very large room, I doubt the D100s will play well in an average size furnished living room, on the contrary, I am sure mine will play better...

I use 360 watts per channel, also with my CC2 center channel I double the dynamic capability of my system, (twice the driver surface and box volume), and last but not least, as they dont have to play under 60hz, at least full blast, their dynamic range is very good thank you, even in my not that small room, 15'x 9'x 24'...

The port, wich is a passive radiator on the EAII, only plays very low frequencies, most of wich will be xrossed over to the Stratas anyway, (40 liters boxes), believe me, ask Michaelab if you dont, my bass is as perfect as I have ever heard in any "normal" room, also audio shows...

 

I would not argue with that - the probability is that the D100's will overpower my similar size room. But then ST seems to think they can work so you never know.

On the power issue, I thought the Rels have 60wpc amps and some EQ. Given that low bass puts the greatest premium on power, I would imagine that this is the main limiting factor.

 

So now I understand what Robbo started with. A little late but ... better late then never.

So you are talking about sat / sub systems where the drivers are packed like sardines in a can?
Well I think they are nice toys, make sometimes a wonderful sound but yes, I agree with Robbo. But aren't these systems ('sardines-cans sat/sub') in a completely different price class than D100 or Meadlarks?
Just thinking that it could be unfair to compare them.

 

Titian,

I'd agree, but to get true high end performance from a sub/sat arrangement does require substantial investment and for me you still get the best performance with larger floorstanders along with a sub or two..

I think we were just responding to Antonio's claim that a couple of Strata's would be comparable, although it would be interesting to compare his setup with something like the Tannoy TD12 or B&W 802 which would retail for a similar cost to the sub/sat setup.

There are some superb new subs out there. I like the B&W850 and would love to hear the new Cabasse Saturn 55 (complete with 21" driver!).

I have recently been able to dem the new Velodyne DD12 & 15 and am happy to take back my critisisms of their subs. These things are extraordinary. The digital EQ is cleverly implemented to measure the crossover area with your satellites and to correct for phase errors making integration seamless. The control and profundity of the bass is truly class leading IMO and will come as one hell of a shock to many existing sub users..

A pair of DD12's along with something like the Revel Gem or the Peak Consult Incognito might well be stuning, but the cost is frightening and they still will not offer the sheer mass between 100hz and 500hz that seems to give the scale that I suspect your Nestarovic's offer.

 

:crazy:

All I was trying to point out was that whilst the mini monitor/sub approach is good for some, its not a panacea and comes with its own set of compromises. Some people will prefer the sound of £3K floorstanders over £3K worth of mini monitors and subs.

There seems to be a syndrome that is sadly all to prevelant on internet forums whereby owners need to self justify their systems. This manifests itself by owners believing that their (often quite middle of the road) system is somehow better than anything else and cannot be beaten. It is obvious that this is nonsense as no hifi is perfect and there are always compromises, even with uber high end kit. It is the nature of the beast.

Part of the trick in this game IMO is to understand this and gain the self confidence to admit that there may be better out there. Being happy with your own system is all that matters. It doesnt have to be better than anyone elses!