Nice Big Speakers

[lowrider]

Originally posted by Robbo
:crazy:

There seems to be a syndrome that is sadly all to prevelant on internet forums whereby owners need to self justify their systems. This manifests itself by owners believing that their (often quite middle of the road) system is somehow better than anything else and cannot be beaten. It is obvious that this is nonsense as no hifi is perfect and there are always compromises, even with uber high end kit. It is the nature of the beast.

Part of the trick in this game IMO is to understand this and gain the self confidence to admit that there may be better out there. Being happy with your own system is all that matters. It doesnt have to be better than anyone elses!

That is a very cheap shot in a otherwise constructive thread, or at least I thought so... :bub:

I have a huge handicap, no one ever believes my system plays music well, (after all AV systems never do), until they visit, even if someone they know witnesses otherwise, like Michaelab, the other day an audiophile that was so sceptical about my system he didnt want to visit, was here and said, without subwoofers or surround, he didnt let me use them, that it was an audioshow winning system, even though he prefers TT and tubes... :newbie:

I am getting fad-up of this stupid "you say your system is better than anything else", it is a bloody lie, all I try to pass is that my system plays well, and some theoretical reasons it does, is that a crime... :chunder:

As for the Strata III, they have 100 watts mosfet amps that will easy do 200 watts on peaks, plus it is direct drive, so more usefull power than any 200 watts passive amp, they might not be to your taste in a very large room, but sure they are more than enough im my room, only set at 1/4 of the volume...

My brother just got a KEF PSW4000, 500 watts 12" long-throw, about twice the size of the Strata. and all it plays is boom, I would rather have a Quake...

I am also getting fad-up of you calling the EAII satelites, they are good stand-mount speakers that play more and better bass than most floorstanders, why dont you try to listen to a pair, with a suitable amplifier, before you speak...

 

[titian]

Originally posted by Robbo
There seems to be a syndrome that is sadly all to prevelant on internet forums whereby owners need to self justify their systems.

I think this you can generalize: it doesn't concern only hifi.
Everyone needs to be self confident to be able to live. Our brain works very hardly to keep our psyche and physic balanced.
Many people need constantly be have a confirmation that what they do is right. This confirmation can happen in different ways without us even noticing it. To admit that "there may be better out there" could destroy in some way the self confidence and therefore the psyche-physic balance of some people. This is for me completely natural. Other people don't need this kind of confirmation but need other kinds which could also appear 'stupid'.
I believe it is always good to know people and accept them how they are. There is always a reason why they act in a particular way. Very often it is not different then our own selves.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by lowrider
Even if my RELs distort some at 20hz, as Merlin insists, I am sure they will still be much better doing bass than most full-range speakers, including D100s, dont forget they have dedicated amplifiers connected directly...

Calm down Antonio, unfortunately the tone of that ripost tends to support Robbo's view. The above statement is I believe what started it, and it really is a crazy one for someone as intelligent and experienced as you.

Your post is incredibly defensive, and I have to agree that you are coming across as someone who is more concerned with the universal admiration of your system, then just enjoyin the music.

Trust me here - that way lays madness

 

[Robbo]

:sigh:

Antonio, thanks for proving my point!

Honestly, there really is no need to worry about other peoples opinions, you are happy with your system and thats all that is important. FWIW I am sure that your system plays great music. but the point is that it doesnt matter what I think, and you dont need to justify it to me or to anyone else. Just enjoy the music!

 

[lowrider]

Originally posted by merlin
Calm down Antonio, unfortunately the tone of that ripost tends to support Robbo's view. The above statement is I believe what started it, and it really is a crazy one for someone as intelligent and experienced as you.

Your post is incredibly defensive, and I have to agree that you are coming across as someone who is more concerned with the universal admiration of your system, then just enjoyin the music.

Trust me here - that way lays madness

Of course my post is defensive, some people are condemning my system without ever hearing it... :inferno:

You are stepping as low as Robbo with your second sentence, at least I know what I like, instead of every other month changing completely my system, after just having completed the best in the world... :JPS:

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by lowrider
As for the Strata III, they have 100 watts mosfet amps that will easy do 200 watts on peaks, plus it is direct drive, so more usefull power than any 200 watts passive amp, they might not be to your taste in a very large room, but sure they are more than enough im my room, only set at 1/4 of the volume...

Antonio, just to put that into perspective, in order for the Rel to generate output at or near 20hz from such a small cabinet, substantial EQ must be applied prior to amplification given that the Strata is sealed. This EQ eats enormous amounts of power unfortunately, meaning that for instance, something like my JBL's will produce the same output at say 25hz with just a few watts, given that the whole system is more efficient. If you want deep bass with normal power amplification, you need large cabinets. If you go the small sealed route, something like 1kw is appropriate to cope with the demands placed on it by the required EQ.

 

[lowrider]

Originally posted by merlin
Antonio, just to put that into perspective, in order for the Rel to generate output at or near 20hz from such a small cabinet, substantial EQ must be applied prior to amplification given that the Strata is sealed. This EQ eats enormous amounts of power unfortunately, meaning that for instance, something like my JBL's will produce the same output at say 25hz with just a few watts, given that the whole system is more efficient. If you want deep bass with normal power amplification, you need large cabinets. If you go the small sealed route, something like 1kw is appropriate to cope with the demands placed on it by the required EQ.

Two Stratas equal 80 liters enclosure, two 10" woofers + 200 watts rms, (they only have to play up to 60hz, and they load the room better as they are closer to the corner and to the floor), I wouldnt call this a small subwoofer for a 360 square feet room...

 

[lowrider]

oops...

 

[GrahamN]

Originally posted by merlin

For me the lesson of today was simple. Invest in the bigget baddest speaker system you can afford. Then upgrade the Source when you can. The portrayal of a full orchestra through the D100's using the budget CD player had to be heard to be beleived!

What do you classical fans think of the importance of large speakers?

Bit late to this party - sorry - but, looks like you've been having fun .

Looks like the anti-source-first movement is gathering ground - that's two Damascene conversions in as many weeks . I may have a source-first solution, but that's just because I can afford it. If I had to raise some money from the hi-fi, it's the Wad that would go rather than either the amp or speakers (although it's also true that that's probably the thing that would raise the most too).

I've heard a fair number of small standmounts, either here or at shows (although mostly without subs). None, without exception - and that includes EAIIs one member brought round here for an evening - could do anything like the scale required for a half-believable orchestral illusion. They may make a very nice sound (e.g. like Robbo's), but it's still like listening to the orchestra from the lobby rather than in the hall. I did for many years with standmounts, but they were about twice the size of today's standmounts.

Titian's sats are probably bigger than most people's floorstanders, so those really don't count as a counter-example.

Those D100s (on the end of Sugden Masterclasses) were about the only sound that came close to impressing me at last autumns Heathrow show. Mike, how long is the window of opportunity going to remain open for me to wangle an invite for an earwig? Evens 1 week, 3-1 two weeks?

(BTW - "I before E except after C, when the sound is EEE")

 

[julian2002]

the other side to the human psyche argument is that we all prefer the familiar to the unfamiliar. when we buy a system and have lived with it for a while we become used to it's presentation. then, when we hear a different system it's, well, different and so an initial snap judgement is that it's 'not as good' as what we have at home. we may admire some aspects of it, even realise that those aspects are better than what we have at home but when we return to our own system it's like putting on a comfortable old pair of jeans - it just fits right. do this often enough and you too will believe that your system is the best out there.
of course i'm excluding merlin from this as his average time of system retention can be measured in attoseconds.
cheers


julian

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by lowrider
at least I know what I like, instead of every other month changing completely my system, after just having completed the best in the world... :JPS:

I just totted up my "hifi dealings" of the past 18 months. Seems by switching components I have made £3K. That £3K has paid for six weeks in Krabi and Trang provinces, plus three weeks cycling in in Ionian islands.

Must remember to keep hold of stuff in future

One day, everyone will realise that hifi is overrated. 99.9% of the population already accept this. I like good hifi. Wouldn't want to commit any money to it though

 

[titian]

Merlin, I hate dealers! :gatling:

Actually: well done!

 

[analoguekid]

Originally posted by wolfgang
Paul,

Would you like to explain? By the way, the last time I pass by Kilmarnock, I try to see if I could find his shop but from the address given in the web it seems to direct me to the middle of a domestic housing estate. Does he run his business from home?

No not from home and he does have nice premises and is reasonably friendly, I just got the feeling that he was trying to satisfy his own agenda rather than mine, jsut didn't trust him,. but give him a ring and arrange appointment, maybe you will find it different.

Paul

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

well I am not sure what it is, I have had 9" proacs with ATc drivers, ATc actives with 9" drivers, 12" volt drivers, and they all didn't really do satisfactory punch, I suspect you need at least a 12 incher, 15 + better.

perhaps you can only get REAL bass with an active sub. io haven't heard any speakers yet do it properly. maybe its down to voicings, maybe p.a. drivers are better
, flabbier?

the only deep bass I have heard is with subs, but they sounded detatched to me, no matter how much I tweaked them

I have my eyes on building an 18" er, with a dual concentric 10" top unit. I don't know if this will work, esp. with valves, easy to drive, but will it give me bass? hmmm....

 

[merlin]

Data,

this is something I don't understand. The "punch" people refer to in the bass seems to come from midbass say 50hz to 100hz. But to get satisfactory weight it needs to be backed up lower down. Real systems seem to use large drivers right up to 500hz, so why is it that active subs rarely venture beyond 100hz?

 

[lowrider]

Originally posted by merlin


I just totted up my "hifi dealings" of the past 18 months. Seems by switching components I have made £3K. That £3K has paid for six weeks in Krabi and Trang provinces, plus three weeks cycling in in Ionian islands.

Real systems seem to use large drivers right up to 500hz, so why is it that active subs rarely venture beyond 100hz?

I wonder who paid for those £3K in the first place...

Define real systems... Maybe, just maybe, a woofer that does 500hz right is not the most recomended for 20hz... :latte:

 

[lowrider]

Re: Re: Nice Big Speakers

Originally posted by GrahamN
I've heard a fair number of small standmounts, either here or at shows (although mostly without subs). None, without exception - and that includes EAIIs one member brought round here for an evening - could do anything like the scale required for a half-believable orchestral illusion. They may make a very nice sound (e.g. like Robbo's), but it's still like listening to the orchestra from the lobby rather than in the hall. I did for many years with standmounts, but they were about twice the size of today's standmounts.

If I thought the EAII where enough, I wouldnt have two Strata IIIs as well, still they do better than many floorstanders at the same price or higher, just read the tests, or better, listen to a pair with a suitable amplifier...

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by lowrider
Maybe, just maybe, a woofer that does 500hz right is not the most recomended for 20hz... :latte:

Absolutely Antonio 15" or 12" is best used down to about 40hz - you need 18"'s really below that

Seriously LR, just get out there and have a listen to some big stuff, then maybe you'll get what some of the guys are saying.

I don't understand the other bit of your post

If you mean the initial investment, then yes of course - but how else do you make money? As for my set up, I spend the majority of my time these days listening to a Rotel Integrated and a little sub/sat setup like yours, total cost about £1.300. And yes I could live with it if I needed to

 

[lowrider]

Originally posted by merlin
Absolutely Antonio 15" or 12" is best used down to about 40hz - you need 18"'s really below that

Seriously LR, just get out there and have a listen to some big stuff, then maybe you'll get what some of the guys are saying.

I don't understand the other bit of your post

If you mean the initial investment, then yes of course - but how else do you make money? As for my set up, I spend the majority of my time these days listening to a Rotel Integrated and a little sub/sat setup like yours, total cost about £1.300. And yes I could live with it if I needed to

I dont care and wasnt referring to what you spend, just a reply to your meaningless statement about saving whatever...

Size doesnt matter, there are many other parameters, and most important, I want to hear bass, not feel the room shaking, after all I am speaking about music, not explosions...

I have heard a few BIG speakers, Wilson, Krell, SF Stradivari, JMlabs 5'tall, with and without their subwoofers, the Wilson and the Krell subs are awsome, etc, of course they could fill a bigger room than my setup, but the end result was similar to my own, give or take some quality...

And I am sure my system has absolutely nothing to do with your crappy £1.300 sub/sat...

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

I want volcanos, earthquakes, my oak beams shaking, my 17th century period cottage falling apart, my gut vibrating thro' my walls of muscle, my head exploding,
yes I want bass, and mid, and sweet top, I want the lot.
pity I only have 9 watts of amp