Notes about notes

Re: R.K.R - a gentleman and a scholar

Yes, I feel almost certain that he is very nice, but it doesn't really help his rather dubious cause that he comes over on the web as a bit of a loony.

Installing separate spurs for each piece of gear involves a lot of work. It may well be that Roy is a bit of a prankster, and is quietly sniggering into his cocoa about how many audiophiles he's managed to con into doing it.

Marco, you have RKR-style multiple spurs, yet no 'tings' were audible on your gear. Why is this, do you think?

 

James, ol' boy...a number of points I could get argumentative about there - but I won't, as the basic principle's OK. Glad your education is proceeding apace

But the far more audiophile point (to which you alluded passim above), is whether any half decent hifi makes any difference to this pitch change - and if so whether that is affected by any furniture close by in the space-time continuum (however many dimensions you feel that to have)? Feel like commenting?
:duck:

 

Not really.

Go on, argue with me about the harmonics.

 

Spoil-sport!

OK then. True the first overtone (2nd harmonic) is an octave above the fundamental. The 2nd overtone (3rd harmonic) is an integer multiple (3) of the fundamental frequency, but is only a 13th (octave and a 5th) above the fundamental - the 4th harmonic being the next ocatve-integer multiple. The 5th harmonic is then a major third above that..... And I wouldn't say that the pitch of the note was changing (as the fundamental remains fixed - unless we start talking about the things TonyL and joel were talking about, which is something entirely different), but it's timbre (i.e. harmonic composition) is.

 

Well that is very interesting, thank you for educating me further. Can you tell that I'm not a musician?

So, when the fundamental and its harmonics are all 'mixed together', so to speak, and some of these sounds are decaying or dying out faster than others, it sounds as if the pitch of the 'note' is changing. But I'm obviously being a bit simplistic as it is in fact the timbre.

Interesting.

 

Or a Physicist ('O' level IIRC).

The pitch/timbre thing is I guess a semantic point - and at the extreme (if e.g. the fundamental dies away quicker than the higher harmonics) it could be said to be a pitch change, but as that is just between harmonically related frequencies I'd still call it a timbre change (most noticeable IMO in the decay of a bell). It's the differences in harmonic content that differentiate between different instruments playing the same nominal note.

Another interesting point is that in certain circumstances you can also hear notes not actually being played. E.g. if you play two notes a 5th apart (i.e. in frequency ratio 1.5:1) you will hear a difference tone (i.e. 0.5) an octave below the fundamental. I was always taught to use this when tuning up my viola (you're in tune when the difference frequency is consonant with the fundamental and you get rid of the low frequency beating)

 

Physics was one of my favourites at school, and I'm the not so proud possessor of an A level in it. But then I got into far more 'squishy' science.

I would have loved to have learned to play an instrument properly, but I had neither the time nor the talent - I tried classical guitar, but got nowhere very slowly. I was given a piano by an ex, but I haven't got into that either, sad to say. I think it's a gift that I wasn't given.

But I enjoy listening to it, so that's something.

 

I suspect a large part of what Bub was actually describing in his first post with reference to the piano is sympathetic resonance, i.e. where the unplayed strings in the instrument vibrate in reaction to the ones that have been hit. This is especially obvious with the damper pedal depressed, and is incidentally the reason that digital pianos using sampled sound sources don't sound real – they can not emulate this crucial aspect of a piano or harpsichord's sound.

This is IMHO actually one of the least geeky threads to arrive on a hi-fi forum. Anyone striving to get a better grasp of how music physically works has to be a good thing - it is a surprisingly rare thing on audio discussion forums!

Tony.

 

Hi Tony,

Yes I do think it's interesting. I was stung into slovenly inaction by the old 'Mana puts instruments out of tune' and 'The LP12 warbles' chit-chat from way back. The decay wasn't really a part of the music which I had spent any time thinking about before.

So I started listening to it with piano music, mostly by Erik Satie. For a moment I thought 'My God they are right, the LP12's total rubbish after all' when I heard the effects described. Then a book which I was reading mentioned harmonic vibrations, and I had a tinkle on the old Joanna. Then I started to wonder if this was what they might have been talking about.

 

I was going to storm in, but Graham has already settled the matter.

Of course pitch doesn't change; only harmonic content. This is particularly noticeable in pluc«ked instruments sounding two strings, one an octave above the other; let's call the fundamental 1st harmonic and the octave second harmonic. The first harmonic string sounds for a longer period of time than the octave string, hence a sensation of lowering the tone.

When you get used to the instrument the psychological phenomenon ceases completely.

But it is only the consequence of a longer string vibrating for a longer period of time.

 

...as in Ms McGregor?

For some really strange piano sounds there's always the prepared piano (i.e. + bolts, washers, tin plates etc), always associated with John Cage. You've just missed a weeked special on his music (on R3) and that of his mates- and one interval talk was all about how he went about developing it (and even included a clip of its use by The Aphex Twin). Saturday night's concert is being broadcast this evening, with all sorts of wierd and wonderful instruments (and a LOT of noise) - but no prepared piano this time. My favourite use of it is in Johm Adams' "John's Book of Alleged Dances".

 

Roy proclaimed sagely when first hearing my system that it was a '3 tinger'; then it was a '5 tinger'; maybe I'm now up to all 7 with the 10mm spurs up and running. Naturally, I've never heard any. What I can hear with the 10 mils is loads more tape hiss. I presume this is a good thing.

Amazingly, this discussion is so far ferrous equipment support free - I have nothing to add that I haven't added before - not a ting.

 

So Rot actually is a prankster? A good one, mind.

 

Re: Re: R.K.R - a gentleman and a scholar

James, I'll acknowledge you on this one, but the first sign of any of your nonsense, and you're back on <ignore>.

What “dubious cause"? Don't take this the wrong way, James, but apart from your deep-rooted scepticism of all things not in front of your nose, would you please explain what makes you think Roy's cause is "dubious"?

I realise the notion of wanting to help others without reward is perhaps not one you're familiar with, but as preposterous a notion as that may seem, it also might in fact be true. Knowing Roy well, I can confirm it is true.

Roy covers his costs, but makes sweet FA from supplying and installing his various mains upgrading paraphernalia in 100's of homes all over the UK, and many others abroad. He also spends hours every day answering e-mails asking for his advice on mains related issues, and duly sends schematic diagrams, and all manner of literature worldwide to anyone who asks for it. He's able to do all that simply because he's retired and sees it as a bit of a hobby.

Roy is also a huge fan of music and has I believe around 3500 CDs and many more albums, so he isn't some tweaky hi-fi nut with a £50K system and a paltry music collection. He runs a fairly modest system (compared to some) of LP12/CDS2/52/2x250/Active Isobariks, and also regularly sends CDs, containing various kinds of music, to people all over the country free of charge when he thinks they may be of interest.

He's 'in it', so to speak, because he enjoys helping others get the most from kit: pure and simple. An 'old school' enthusiast, if you like, who uses hi-fi forums solely for the intended purpose. As such, I don't believe he deserves your ridicule.

I presume I've answered that one. I would add that Roy often carries out the work himself; spending many hours doing so, therefore if he's a "prankster", he's a bloody energetic one!

James, Roy hears what he hears. I hear what I hear. You hear what you hear; and so it is.

Marco.

 

Bub,

Have you started looking for A. N. Other deck yet?

I'm going to apologise before I say this if I'm wrong so, sorry, but are you taking the piss out of some of us?


Alex,

Have you got the disc? If so I feel a vast emptiness not knowing what level of Tinger I am.

I assume there is a vinyl version or it won't really test the best bit of my system ;->


Cheers

Jason

 

Re: Re: Re: R.K.R - a gentleman and a scholar

Says the "business man" to the Doctor, fantastic!

Cheers

Jason

 

Roy hears what he hears. I hear what I hear. You hear what you hear; and so it is.

Hi again. Well do you or do you not hear 'tings' on the RKR Elvis Presley track? It's a straight question, yes or no? Mick's ducked it, which suggests to me that he doesn't hear them, and now you seem a bit coy about it too. I remember you saying, when I visited, that you'd never heard them , and that was with the multiple spurs 'upgrade' already in place. The only person I know who can hear anything on that track which might be described as a 'ting' is Paul Ranson, and only through his Isobariks - the 'tings' disappeared when he put the Quad electrostatics in instead. This suggests that these 'tings' may in fact be an isobarik problem, and nothing more than that. They are not audible through my ATCs.

There is a serious point to this. It may well be that multiple spurs are actually a bad thing: Julian Vereker thought so, and there are mutterings on the Naim forum to the same effect. The reason it may be bad is that it appears that there is no common Earth with this arrangement.

Multiple spurs are expensive things to install, and a whole heap of hassle, too. I can understand that if you've forked out for it and gone through all the hassle, then you might not be too willing to admit to yourself that they were in fact a total waste of time and money.

 

It is; it's called increased information retrieval. I got the same effect when I put in the 10mils, along with loads of other tings...

Marco.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: R.K.R - a gentleman and a scholar

Jason, I should imagine James receives ample financial reward for performing his admirable skills.

Marco.

 

Come on Marco, answer the question please. Do you hear these alleged 'tings' or not?