REL Quake

[merlin]

Originally posted by lowrider
The ATC SCM50 only go down to 40hz -6db, I think even one REL Strata III does better than that...

Err no

The Rel would Sh1t it's cone halfway across the room if asked to produce ATC type levels anywhere near 40hz

Merlin, my man, you are finally getting my point...

Which is what Antonio (citizen of Euro Quarter Finalists 2004)

That your system is compromised?

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by analoguekid
Merlin is that you backpeddaling now,

No, not really - I've been using subs on and off for years. Just given the choice, IMO big speakers are so much more fun

 

[lowrider]

Originally posted by Robbo
Ah, we are back to the old quality vs quantity argument.

The trouble is the stratas will have far more distortion, which may prove to be a problem for some. The ATCs will have low distortion and the velodyne will have the lowest distortion of the lot due to the servo feedback.

Distortion... man, that is a bad word... in a moment we will be talking about negative feedback and so on...

 

[lowrider]

Originally posted by merlin
Which is what Antonio (citizen of Euro Quarter Finalists 2004)

That your system is compromised?

Merlin, Merlin...

You know better than that, what about subwoofers beeing easier to set-up in common rooms...

By the way it has been 23 years since we last won to Spain...

 

[analoguekid]

Originally posted by merlin
No, not really - I've been using subs on and off for years. Just given the choice, IMO big speakers are so much more fun

FWIW i agree with you, just joining in with this as its fun

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by lowrider
Merlin, Merlin...

You know better than that, what about subwoofers beeing easier to set-up in common rooms...

I know they are Antonio Whatever we think of Tact as a company, the idea of using corrected subwoofers close to corners and satellites out in the room still makes the best sense to me, and had produced the best bass I have heard.

But that was with Nautilus 801's on stands as satellites

 

[lowrider]

Thats what I mean, even large speakers like the 801 need subwoofers...

 

[The Devil]

Originally posted by lowrider
The ATC SCM50 only go down to 40hz -6db, I think even one REL Strata III does better than that...

So ....? [I use SCM100As, btw]

I've not heard any subwoofer come even remotely close to reproducing proper bass. ATCs rule. So ner!

 

[Robbo]

You need to hear Merlins JBL K2 subs, they use 15" drivers that make the ATC100 drivers look positively feeble. Proper bass, I can assure you.

 

[julian2002]

Proper bass, I can assure you.

yes, but in next door but 1's living room only

surely both approaches have compromises dependant on the individual system or room. so categoricly saying subs are better / worse than no subs is a little foolish? still whats a hi-fi forum for if not showing that you are a little foolish?
cheers


julian

 

[lowrider]

Originally posted by julian2002
surely both approaches have compromises dependant on the individual system or room. so categoricly saying subs are better / worse than no subs is a little foolish? still whats a hi-fi forum for if not showing that you are a little foolish?

Thats what I have been trying to make those hard skulls understand, not every room will take large speakers gracefully, as Merlin just found out...

Also that a well setup speaker + subwoofers system will sound the same as large speakers, I had KEF 104.2 with McIntosh amplifier in my last stereo system, they are large, efficient, 92db, but my current system beats them in every regard... :MILD:

 

[merlin]

Kef 104.2 ? With Kube or without? Still not a really big speaker is it mate

Room modes still exist with subs you know- and are best tamed IMO by judicious use of EQ. If you don't have any problems where your Rels are, then surely you could use some larger and less gay (as Bub puts it) speakers and improve the system no end?

 

[greg]

Whilst a) I think large speakers are not really ideal for smaller rooms and therefore are not universally ideal and b) that I have had good results from a basic sat/sub setup, but much better and inherantly more integrated results from my Kef 107/2 alone, I would add the 104/2 is not really the best example of large speakers with regards to this debate. Also they actually benefit added subs as they only go down to around 50Hz whereas the 107/2 has far better dynamics (than the 104/2) and genuine 20 to 20K range.

Again though to act as a mediator...
1) Merlin's JBLs, from what I have read, whilst remarkable, are probably a little extreme for your average listener - though if I had the cash I would have purchased them in a flash
2) Pur SPLs is not really the main point, though dynamics, integration, headroom, etc. seems (to me) to be the core of the issue. Then I guess potential SPL is important
3) I would argue until Merlin has listened to Antonio's setup and Antonio has been entertained at chez Merlin, we should accept there is still the potential for one or the other to have to eat their words but until then its all conjecture...
4) Lets all put our penises back in our pants
5) England v Croatia - any predictions?

 

[lowrider]

Originally posted by merlin
Kef 104.2 ? With Kube or without? Still not a really big speaker is it mate

Room modes still exist with subs you know- and are best tamed IMO by judicious use of EQ. If you don't have any problems where your Rels are, then surely you could use some larger and less gay (as Bub puts it) speakers and improve the system no end?

Sure, only your speakers are big and only your subwoofers do bass (in a 7 feet wide room, dont make me laugh), have you heard the KEFs, didnt they sound big, you reckon most people in Europe has larger speakers than those...

Room modes still exist, only you are able to place the subs where they will be better tammed, and even equalize them without spoiling the rest of the band, if you want to...

Of course I could improve my system, if I wanted to, had more cash to spare or wasn't happy with its sound, at least I dont go around saying I am more interested in decor after failing to achieve the sound I was looking for... :JPS:

 

[lowrider]

Originally posted by greg
I would add the 104/2 is not really the best example of large speakers with regards to this debate. Also they actually benefit added subs as they only go down to around 50Hz whereas the 107/2 has far better dynamics (than the 104/2) and genuine 20 to 20K range.

I know they dont go too deep in order to be efficient and sound like big, there where two points to the argument, one was bass, the other was monitors/subwoofers sounding worst, smaller than large speakers, I think the 104.2 are a good example of the second...

I hope England wins, the result against France was unfair, actually France was lucky again with croatia...

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by lowrider
Room modes still exist, only you are able to place the subs where they will be better tammed, and even equalize them without spoiling the rest of the band, if you want to...

Bah twaddle!

If you move your subs away from the satellites, your imaging will be screwed up if you crossover high enough up to get rid of that puny 61/2" upper bass sound.

If you keep 'em close enough or directly behind, then the room acoustics will be the same or worse and you might as well have bought some proper speakers in the first place!

I'm getting in walls anyway - can't stand the sight of speakers in my new room. They all clash horribly with the soft furnishings! And the room is 22ft l x 14ft w x 8ft h

 

[lowrider]

Sure, a woofer facing the floor will excite room nodes exactly the same way as another 2 feet up, or worst, 5 feet up... Also 4 feet from the wall is the same as 2 feet from the wall... :chunder:

In walls... :ffrc: :ffrc: :ffrc: :ffrc: :ffrc: :NADowner:

I wonder what will be your next claims of perfect sound... :newbie:

 

[The Devil]

A woofer facing the floor is an ideal method of making the floor shake about a lot. Great fun, or so I should imagine.

 

[greg]

Originally posted by lowrider
I know they dont go too deep in order to be efficient and sound like big,

not sure thats why they dont go deep - the 107 is 90db 1w efficiency and they do sound big, but their design is different which is why - incidentally they arent much bigger in size than the 104/2

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by The Devil
A woofer facing the floor is an ideal method of making the floor shake about a lot. Great fun, or so I should imagine.

Nice one- at least it's good for something then , bearing in mind how it screws up phase, coherence and relies heavily on boundary loading (2B minimum), to get any useful bass