REL Quake

You should do your home work before you speak about bass, so your large speakers dont use boundary loading (wake up), the problem is they do and most of the reflections are out of phase, for instance they need to be not further than 53 cms from all walls and floor to get 80hz reflections in phase (imagine 500hz), or far enough that reflections will be late and do not interfere with direct sound, can you do that with the D100s in your room, no way Jose... :JPS:

I can with my monitor/subwoofer combo and active xover...

 

Antonio,

I recall telling you that a long time ago back in the days of AV Forums (before we were both kicked out!)

And it is correct, for frequencies below 80hz. But for me, big speakers excel between 100hz and 500hz, where the majority of music's energy comes from. It is here that speakers like Bub's ATC's kick the provebial, and where sadly most sub sat systems lack real grunt for me.

 

Yes, I think a lot of people here seem to believe that there is a lot of activity in music between 20-40 Hz, when there really isn't very much at all. I am very lucky (well, partly it was design on my part - I looked at a lot of property before seeing the flat I wanted, and I chose it primarily for the huge living room) to have a room that will accommodate very large speakers without them looking out of place...but as the yanks say about motors, "there aint no substitute for cubes".

Subs may have their place for room-shaking cinema special effects, but for music this is stunt-fi, not hi-fi.

 

But bub your speakers are not cubes, they are cuboids, what do the yanks ssay about them.

Having heard your speakers I'm inclined toi agree, in your large Victorian townhouse with large rooms they sound superb, but for those of us with modern house and seven or eight feet ceilings, I fear they would blow the walls down, and my speakers woud, prolly not be enough to drive your room, as we discussed.

Can't stop playing that Buddy Rich BTW, doesnt look that cool at the traffic lights Audi, Oakleys and BR on the tranny.

 

Antonio,

check this out to see that real speakers can exist in small rooms (warning Japanese text!)

Now if only our reviews were so in depth.

Joel, any idea what the stands are?

PS. Nice amps too

 

Well, thats blown my respect for the japs out the water , I mean why go to all the trouble of measuring the room (still only 4db down at 26hz pretty good for large drivers), with all that RTA gear, diagrams of the room, and yet the use of the cheapest & nastiest pair of very nearlys (Verniers) I've seen this side of petti-coat lane market I would of though at least a pair of Digi vern's, and those neon blue slippers man, is that for physdo transidentalist jazz lovers, high on interdimensional weed and brain food? they are Class, wonder what colour his pipe is???

"Yes, I think a lot of people here seem to believe that there is a lot of activity in music between 20-40 Hz"

Bub, take note of the bass curve, its got some down below 50hz all the way done too 28hz, you may wish to investigate this
I find it helps in recreating 'true picture' bass as well as filling the room having a more complete lower octave gives the finshing touches to the sonic painting as well as firming up the image and adding tangability to vocal ranges.
Although coming from my boom & tizz background, this would be in my own opinion.

 

Bub, take note of the bass curve, its got some down below 50hz all the way done too 28hz, you may wish to investigate this

Please explain what you are talking about a little more fully. TIA.

 

WM haven't got the spectrum analyser out but one of the things that was good about bubs sytem was the bass, clean clear crisp and bags of low down grunt.

The only negatives comments I made to James were that I thought he could maximise the imaging more, personally i felt a bit of toing in and twweters nearer your ears horizontaly (although he would then need to raise couch, but he says it doesn't suit him or that he doesn't feel the need for it, and what was the other one, ah MANA, sounded ok but the looks are an aquired taste, but apart from that musical and dynamic, all I can say Tony is that if you don't call that bass then i hope you don't set of any seismometers or the men in black will come and take your amps away and you won't even remember you had them.

 

Tony IS one of the Men in Black. I think. Either that, or an alien.

I think the imaging has gone to pot because I am trying the tweeters 'on the outside', and I think I prefer them 'on the inside'.

When phase 11 arrives, I'll put them back to the inside.

 

Paul,

Thats an RTA (Real Time Analyser) trace, not a sectrum, (I'd love to thrash one of those SPV's, was Captain Black cool or what btw )


Bub, just call me 'K'

 

shouldn't that be "T"

 

Come on Tony, you know better than that!

Take the 9800K2. Similar specs to Bub's ATC's - -3db @ 45hz in the specs. But measure in room at the listening position and they will be -3db at 20hz ( +12db @ 30hz in your room) so bass is not the problem the specs suggest mate.

Of course, in an ideal world, any speaker would be +12db at 20hz, given our ears' sensitivity. But then, mastering engineers realise this is not the case so the rest of us are OK

 

I think mine 'cut off' at 32 Hz. What this means in terms of lower frequencies, I have no idea. I would have thought that 'room gain' would vary from room to room, wouldn't it?

In any event, I have an adequate sufficiency of bass, thank you all very much. I think any more would be too much. I certainly don't want or need a subwoofer.

 

Whereas I have an "elegant sufficiency" of bass and wouldn't want a sub either.

Bub has anyone tried a sub with mana? (not being flippant just curious)

 

James I wasn't suggesting you need a sub, just a a better of speakers and some decent amps
It would really interesting to see, what the 50's could do with decent amps on them, quite a lot I suspect
Mike, the room measurements were +12db@38 with the GR20's, front bass port exciting the room mode badly, giving the ledgendary sofa antics, the Meadowlarks, offer far more control, being rear ported and transmission line , really do keep all the extra well under wraps, last figs (oct 03) were +3@34hz and -3@26db. 28 hz (0) being a flatliner, so room/speaker interaction does play a lead role, but can be tamed with a little time and patience.

 

If that's the case (and I suspect those measurements were courtesy of a Tandy SPL meter) then it is You who is lacking bass and needs a sub mate, really!

And it was +15db at 32hz Tony, I still have the measurements. You had a classic case of room gain without the attendant losses caused by porous walls and wooden floors. Sounded hugely entertaining, but I still cannot beleive you can get from that to your new figures and claim it is down to just the port tuning.

Given that your room shows the classic 6db per octave room gain, and that the Meadowlarks should be -3db at around 30hz, it would seem that either your measurements are wrong, or your current setup is seriously bass light.

 

Sorry I dont get your point...

They place the speakers close to the corners, as subwoofers, so bass should be ok, but I wonder about midrange and imaging...

Is that how you think a living room should look... :JPS:

Bub,

I never said large speakers are worst, as long as you have a large or dedicated treated room, otherwise monitors/subs are more appropriate, also, very few speakers are full range, subwoofers well setup will always help, even with music... :MILD:

 

If I interpreted Tony correctly I think what he was saying regards the extended lower octave is the way bass extension adds scale and believability rather than adding greater "bass" dynamics.

Essentially I mean the issue of dynamics and energy differ from that of scale and tangeability. Note i am after both. I think its a mistake to interpret the desire for lower Hz as an attempt to add deeper more powerful "bass" to a system, but to me it does add more presence. Equally what I gain in this area I probably lose in punch and, to some extend, energy.

 

YES!

All living rooms should have a big blue pair of JBL's in the corner, a mini bar, and enough amplification to get the owner evicted.

What's the point if your hifi doesn't make you grin

When I see some forum users talking slam and dynamics, I just have to laugh - really!

As for imaging and soundstage, when you listen to big JBL's, you really couldn't give a sh1t about that kind of audiophool twaddle, you're too busy playing along

 

Merlin - you should consider setting up a Roots sound system - your love seems to lie with PA equipment