Turntable choices

The point is that LP12s don't drift out of tune unless you mistreat them.

I don't care what deck you use, I do dislike shallow digs based on misconceptions.

(If you're competent to change your own cartridge then by definition your LP12 doesn't drift much.)

Paul

 

Hiya Lord
good to see you here

Mr Ranson, im sorry but your quote-

shows how little you know of suspension technology, even a full on (non active) fully damped, wich the sondek aint, will drift with use and climatic change.
Spring rate changes with not only use but age aswell, nuts will shift with use. Maybe you should ask people like Mr WP or Mr Ohlin, im sure they can enlighten you

 

Oh Lordy, 'inaccurate' compared to what exactly; what's the reference criteria?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an LP12 acolyte, but in my opinion, the 'inaccurate mid-bass bounce' you mention is partly responsible for why an LP12 gets your foot tapping (arguably) like no other deck.

If you want 100% accuracy, listen to master tape.

Marco.

 

Paul,
I'm sorry but you have little understanding of what you are talking about and absolutely none of what I am talking about! LP12s do drift in/out of tune even when left totally alone.

Penance,
Hello and spot on with your bouncy attempt at suspension enlightenment!

Marco,
The reference is almost any other deck from the humble Regas to the 5 figure decks namechecked in this thread. If people want toe tapping colouration then they could buy a graphic EQ and tap to thier hearts content! If people are not fussed about accuracy they don't bother with hi-fi! Strangely I have noticed my feet tap more now with the Mentor, but not to every piece of music. I have also noticed my jaw dropping and tears welling with certain tunes! :MILD:

All,
I do seem to have stirred up the Linnies don't I?!

 

Spring rates (in this context...) do not change with use or age. Nuts do not move, especially lock nuts. An LP12 is not a race car, and a race cars settings do not move unless you bump it into things.

So what's your point?

Buy what turntable you like, but do it for the right reasons.

Just out of interest, what would you consider a reasonable service interval for a mechanical device like a turntable? Or is it only LP12s that have belts with a finite life?

Prejudice really sucks.

(if the temperature and humidity of your room vary enough to trouble an LP12 then I wonder what speakers you have? I think there are types suited to outside use that might suit.)

Paul

 

Howdy Paul,
Changing the belt or even the oil or even (for the adventurous like me ) a cartridge is not exactly rocket science - it is only the Linn that requires 'servicing' because it is an overly tweaky device too reliant on minute adjustments to get the best out of it.
Like I said I happily owned a Linn (for over 5 years), it is with the benefit of very informed hindsight that I can now realise how much time and money that I wasted (the money I got back!) on a turntable that always left me with the niggling feeling that it could do better.
Linn are onto a winner really, a relatively massive marketing budget coupled to a never ending 'upgrade' path and with the ultimate defence line "it wasn't setup right"! The above strategy is guaranteed to keep certain devotees emptying thier pockets on a regular basis... whether it is for yet another service or for the latest enhancement to the previously unbeatable turntable.

 

So, have you levelled the platter using a concentric spirit level placed over the spindle with the platter rotating, driven by the belt as if in normal use?

Your platter is still turning, say, 90 minutes after spinning it manually? Go on, really?

 

Aaah bless you Dear Devil!

No, I levelled the deck using a spirit level on the platter surface and also the plinth surface. I even bought a test LP (HFNrr) to test the near perfection that I had obtained (all bar the 18dB tracks were passed with my less than middling MC). Those 'concentric' bubblers are nice but it is that infinitessimal degree of required adjustment that now makes me smile about suspended designs! The Mentor sounded great even when (in impatience) I plonked it on my less than level floor... obviously it sounds better every time I give it a better and more level support but that is nowhere near the difference that (for example) the Linn displays.
IMHAO all that is required of a vinyl system is; the relative speed between record and stylus, the cartridge relevant height/weight adjustments and minimising external influences. A 2kg platter on springs or a 45kg platter... which will respond more to any external influence? (Which will be the cheaper to ship!).

I'll admit that I was gently taking the urine about the spinning but I timed it at about 90 seconds just for my Linn addicted nemese. I was serious about the subsidence though, the decks mass is enough to flatten any floorboard unless you host a 'Fit Club disco'! By the by, how often and how do you maintain and/or service your ol' Linn?

For my further interest: apart from my lovingly niggling little posts (which have probably dissuaded you from auditioning any NAS deck forevermore!) which black decks are you and the G/F now considering?

And with all seriousness I would love to hear a few of the decks in this thread, including your uber-Linn and a good (well set-up ) Orbe, but I am obviously and genuinely very happy with my old Mentor. It Rocks, it Funks, it Dubs, it Punks, it Countries, it Westerns, it even Jazz. Classical is beyond (my) comment but the designer likes such...

 

Sorry to be ignorant Me Lud, but, given that you do not appear to have the Wave mechanic/Strobe combo, could you explain how you have achieved the former?

 

I am most disappointed

Bub

Just try the Garrard 501 / Aro, the stuff being mentioned in this thread is fit only for the inhabitants of a lower form school playground.

LP12's I mean for goodness sake.

Regards

Mick

 

Hi Lord,

It does make an enormous difference, if you can be bothered, to level the platter properly on an LP12. I would imagine that this is true for all other turntables, too. Assuming that the platter is level just because the plinth is does have it's pitfalls.

Correct supports are hugely important for turntables, in terms of minimising vibrational influences.

 

Hi Paul

No prejudice here im afraid. I have never owned an LP12 and as such have no opinion on the benefits or draw backs of the LP12.
But your assumptions are incorrect. Suspension WILL change over time. A spring held under constant strain will weaken hence a change in spring rate, same for the nuts, as the rate lessens the tension holding the nut in place also lessens and the chances of the nut moveing will increase.
Sorry but you sport car annalogy is way off mark, even the best car set-ups will change over time (with or without bumps)

No idea on service interval for an LP12, as i said, not owned one and certainly no prejudice

 

Never owned an LP12, but my springy Orbe-spec Gyro stays in tune with no problem, so much so that I almost never have to tweak it (it does repay a bit of effort spent on initial setup). If this is true of Michell suspended decks, I don't see why it can't be true of LP12s as well, although I have no experience one way or another.

-- Ian

 

Lord, you miss my point; I said reference criteria, i.e. not the hardware, but rather the methodology used to gauge the accuracy (or otherwise) of the Linn's mid-bass 'bounce' - accurate to what exactly?

Don't get me wrong, if one perceives that to be the case, in actuality, it is as 'inaccurate' as any other perceived notion in hi-fi, but that doesn't mean (in actuality) other decks achieve greater 'accuracy' than an LP12. For example, if the reference criterion is a live musical performance, how does one know for sure how the music sounded at the event when one only has access to a recording? Even if one attended the event in question, there are still many anomalies liable to skew one's ability to make viable judgements on how accurately a hi-fi system (or in this case a vinyl source component) is able to replicate that sound at home. Furthermore, if you're going to play the coloration card, then ALL hi-fi equipment is 'coloured' in some aspect or other. Believe it or not, sometimes it can actually be enjoyable!

The point I'm making is that, in my opinion, the term 'accuracy' has only the most tenuous of associations with hi-fi equipment, and people frequently use it as the ultimate benchmark with which to judge the standard of equipment, when in reality, it is something that cannot realistically be attained.

Therefore, with hi-fi equipment, it's simply a matter of choosing what type of coloration you prefer, and then building a system on that basis. When it comes to vinyl replay, I prefer my coloration in the form of an LP12.

Marco.

 

Marco,

that's sad! Whilst I wouldn't knock the LP12 (I used to own one and like it's fun factor), if a recording is made flat and the LP12 alone plays it back with a midbass hump, trhen it plainly aint the music you are listening to but the turntable.

To argue against that is just plain stupid to me. On the point about suspension drift, I never felt the need to have my LP12 tuned, I think the myth was propagated by the FE dealers to rip their clients off for another £100 every 18 months or so! Another reason not to bother with "the brotherhood"

 

The LP 12's mid-bass hump does not exist, in my opinion. Accuracy or fidelity to the medium is what high-fidelity is all about. If we are going to abandon that concept, then what's the point of it all?

The master tape must contain all of the musical information. If I had the option, I would rather listen to master tapes played on high-quality equipment than listen to anything else. But I have to make do with something very close to it.

The notion that accuracy to the master tape will produce a 'sterile' or 'analytical' or 'unmusical' result is so obviously incorrect as to require no further comment.

 

My dear Merlin, the 'flat' recording is influenced by other factors once the information leaves the grooves... so what's 'accurate' then, and what isn't?

I'm glad you mentioned the fun factor, because to me, that's what listening to music is all about; not a lesson in an anechoic chamber.

 

IMO an LP12 does not have the pitch stability to approach a master tape. No doubting its nice to listen to though, just not as nice as better decks.

 

Utterly agree with you James, I too would listen to mastertape all day if I could, and having spent many an hour doing so, recall what it sounds like.

Now I don't know about the Ninja, but a standard LP12 is nothing like it I'm afraid, and IMHO there is a very clear mid bass lump that obscures midrange detail and low bass (although I hear the Lingo helps here).

That's what we all strive for surely. Messing with the sound in order to make something Boogie on 70's Glam Rock is unlikely to lead to a system that enables you to enjoy and expand your music collection.

 

It measures very well in terms of speed stability.

Tautologically true.