Turntable choices

[Goomer]

Messing with the sound in order to make something Boogie on 70's Glam Rock is unlikely to lead to a system that enables you to enjoy and expand your music collection.

So, are you saying, then, that all LP12 owners have music collections that pre-date their record players and have no hope of ever enjoying current releases? With all due respect, that is just not true. As I'm sure you're aware, tastes and preferences are an entirely subjective thing, so for one person on this forum to tell another on this forum that they can't possibly enjoy the music that they are listening to and enjoying is just plain incorrect.

To quote from previous bits of this thread:

When it comes to vinyl replay, I prefer my coloration in the form of an LP12.

To argue against that is just plain stupid to me.

I'm not having a go, by the way, it just seems to me to be a little presumptious to make such a sweeping statement - horses for courses and all that.

Hope you are all having an ace day.

 

[merlin]

Jesus,

talk about Spin, are you employed by Party HQ?

Please read the posts properly then don't quote out of context

Your fabrication really isn't worth the effort

 

[Alex S]

Bub, listening to hi-fi and all its bits its seems there's a clear divide - those who rely on measurements or the absence thereof and those who rely on ears. Even if the ears > brain conundrum is largely psychoillogical, I'm happier with the latter approach. Measurements mean sweet FA IMO.

 

[The Devil]

Come off it Alex! Turntable speed stability is one of the few things in hi-fi which actually can be measured very easily indeed. OTOH, if you would like to ignore such measurements and insist that the LP12 'warbles' on long notes, then you are perfectly within your rights, I guess!

 

[Goomer]

talk about Spin, are you employed by Party HQ?

I was gonna go for the job that Campbell vacated but heard that they were going to limit my powers so decided against it - no fun at all if you can't have a free reign.

As I said, I wasn't having a go and if I misinterpreted the previous posts then I humbly apologise o ) and withdraw from the thread forthwith.

 

[merlin]

No Worries Goomer,it's just the flatties amuse me sometimes. there's always a valid defence. I mean read this thread. Hearing pitch instability? Rubbish, the measurements are OK, you're imagining it!

Measuring a bass hump? Twaddle, measurements are useless, use your ears and keep it real!

See what I mean, these guys are masters of defending their kit at all costs, I guess the practice helps with eccentricities like Briks and the like.

It must be terrible to have a hifi that needs defending on such a regular basis.

 

[Paul Ranson]

But your assumptions are incorrect. Suspension WILL change over time. A spring held under constant strain will weaken hence a change in spring rate,

A change in the length implies nothing about the rate which remains constant. A suspended turntable settling slightly is expected and doesn't affect the performance.

same for the nuts, as the rate lessens the tension holding the nut in place also lessens and the chances of the nut moveing will increase.

The only spring related nuts on the LP12 support the weight of the sub-chassis/platter/arm, which as I'm sure you'll agree doesn't change over less than geological time.

And what's going to move the nuts? Have you tried turning them? It's a significant effort. They do not move.

Sorry but you sport car annalogy is way off mark, even the best car set-ups will change over time (with or without bumps)

Racing car. I know because I have one and set it up.

FWIW my LP12 which hasn't had its suspension tweaked for more than 7 years is still level with a fine bounce. By now it probably needs a new belt and possibly other rubber bits. We shall see.

Clearly the number of accessible people competent to setup LP12s is reducing. AFAICT the only other generally recommendable turntables are the Regas and Michells. The others are all of very limited availability, (so you can't expect to get a demo), from very small tweaky companies (so you can't have much confidence in a 30 or more year service life) or don't have lids so you can't pile CDs on them.

Paul

 

[Uncle Ants]

Blimey,

and all this because some poor Devil wants to lose his LP12 (or rather his missus does)

My old man always lusted after an LP12 back in the day (but couldn't afford one). Must admit I'd always assumed that the reason LP12 owners didn't mind the tweaking was because they enjoyed the tweaking. And good luck to em eh? My only problem with LP12s is in accord with the Devil's mistress - they ming (sexy for a coffin mind).

There must be a raft of sexy looking, black hi end decks which will at least match the Linn and several from firms which offer excellent service too - Michell Orbe, SME 10 spring to mind (excuse the pun)

 

[penance]

Paul

nice *****

 

[The Devil]

Originally posted by merlin
It must be terrible to have a hifi that needs defending on such a regular basis.

No, it's great and you are all just jealous.

It's actually pretty easy to defend the LP 12 against the sort of specious attacks in this thread: Lord never even bothered to get his LP12 platter level and true, so he doesn't count; I know Alex well and he is stone deaf and insane, so that Count doesn't count either; and you have weird views about everything and use a graphic equaliser, so you don't count as well.

 

[merlin]

James you forgot no.98

"your electronics are not of acceptable quality to allow the true greatness of the LP12 to be heard, therefore your view has no value"

Or closer to home at no.69, "If it ain't sitting on a reference shelf, your view don't count

 

[Marco]

Originally posted by merlin

I too would listen to mastertape all day if I could, and having spent many an hour doing so, recall what it sounds like.

Jeez, for me, that would be the ultimate lesson in abject boredom... Merlin, it's obvious you and I enjoy different things in our music. An emotive element is something I consider crucial to my enjoyment of music, and for me, that rules out a sterile-sounding medium such as master tape.

Messing with the sound in order to make something Boogie on 70's Glam Rock is unlikely to lead to a system that enables you to enjoy and expand your music collection.

I'm not 'messing' with anything, I've assembled a system that fulfils my sonic and musical priorities, but I'm not naive enough to believe it has a more 'accurate' sound than anyone else's. The amusing thing is that some of the more vociferous proponents of the 'absolute neutrality above all else' methodology use equipment such as an LP12, together with Naim ancillaries; arguably two examples of the most coloured-sounding equipment available.

Marco.

 

[The Devil]

Hi,

I know how accurate my system is, having listening to a recording of live music which was made in my listening room. It is extremely accurate.

An emotive element is something I consider crucial

I can hear emotion on my car radio, and kitchen tranny. It's not difficult for a hi-fi to reproduce 'emotion'.

It is, however, impossible for a hi-fi to reproduce 'emotion' if it wasn't already present on the master tape, now isn't it?

Wuffley thinking.

 

[notaclue]

Originally posted by Marco
Jeez, for me, that would be the ultimate lesson in abject boredom... Merlin, it's obvious you and I enjoy different things in our music. An emotive element is something I consider crucial to my enjoyment of music, and for me, that rules out a sterile-sounding medium such as master tape.

I don't claim to be a hi-fi expert but I don't really see how this 'musical' v 'hi-fi' thing works. To me the above statement is more of the 'I prefer listening to hi-fi' rather than the other way round.

I don't see how hi-fi can 'improve' on the master tape in terms of 'music' unless someone prefers 'music' warmer, smoother etc. or simplified.

 

[ReJoyce]

AFAICT the only other generally recommendable turntables are the Regas and Michells. The others are all of very limited availability, (so you can't expect to get a demo), from very small tweaky companies (so you can't have much confidence in a 30 or more year service life) [/B]

Paul,

That seems a bizarre way to choose a turntable: I'll only buy it if the company will be there is 30 years, not least of which is the sheer unknowability assuming that you haven't invented time travel by LP12 bounce ... actually since your LP12 hasn't needed a service for 7 years perhaps you have. Besides VPi and clearaudio to name two would be a little pissed off to be discounted as "tweaky companies" and they are much more widely available than you imply, maybe not in Linn/Naim dealerships ... many of whom don't dem LP12's even... oh forgot you aren't ever going to go near a non- Linn/Naim dealer are you?

I'll add one other ingredient that you are happily ignoring and that is sample to sample variability of the LP12. No two ever seem to react the same over time. I have had three, the first was great, setup didn't drift. The second one was a disaster and never seemed to work right and the third was like a return to the first (all setup by the same guy btw).


Cheers

Jason

PS. I have a lid, it was just an option (as it is for a lot of decks).

 

[Marco]

Originally posted by Alex S

Bub, listening to hi-fi and all its bits its seems there's a clear divide - those who rely on measurements or the absence thereof and those who rely on ears. Even if the ears > brain conundrum is largely psychoillogical [Editors note: {Snigger}], I'm happier with the latter approach.

This can't be right... I find myself in 100% agreement with Alex! Not to worry, I'm sure it's just a passing phase...

It's the old argument again isn't it? The scientifically-minded amongst us require everything to be proven, and the rest of us simply use our ears (and our experience) to judge, or form opinions about hi-fi; I have my suspicions it's because of their lack of the latter, that many of the scientifically-minded folks rely so heavily on the former

Marco.

 

[The Devil]

I'll add one other ingredient that you are happily ignoring and that is sample to sample variability of the LP12.

No doubt true for any mechanical device. JV said Naim preamps were very variable, too.

 

[ReJoyce]

Originally posted by Marco
This can't be right... I find myself in 100% agreement with Alex! Not to worry, I'm sure it's just a passing phase...

Marco,

You are bound to luck out every now and then ... million monkeys and a million typewriters will regularly generate a Marco post ... sort of thing ;->

Anyway, you don't use a deck at all so shouldn't be arguing with us.


Cheers

Jason

PS. Did you buy the ECS amp?

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by Marco
An emotive element is something I consider crucial to my enjoyment of music, and for me, that rules out a sterile-sounding medium such as master tape......



I'm not 'messing' with anything, Marco.

Oh if only you could realise the contradictory aspect of your contributions Marco, typical of the defensive flattie.


You're messing with the master tape for starters Marco

As that is the music as recorded and intended, and given that if it didn't sound musical it would be remastered, then how can you possibly claim you have an interest in hifi?

 

[Lord]

Hello again Devil,
When you asked me how I had got my platter level I told you I had used a spirit level on the platter and on the plinth...
You then told me that just making sure the plinth was level would not guarantee getting the platter level...!
Now you have presumed to tell everyone that my views do not count because I did not get my platter level!
Incredible!

I cannot believe that you feel it necessary to misread, misquote and misrepresent just in order to defend a turntable that you are now looking to change!

It's almost laughable!