2 Power kords needed

[tones]

My first and last contribution to the debate. I bought a Eupen power cord from Audusa and tried it. It made no difference whatsoever. This is not to say that it won't make a difference with other equipment or to other ears, but any statement to the effect that "better power cord = automatic improvement in all circumstances" is clearly wrong.

 

[bottleneck]

Originally posted by merlin
I really should not post I agree

However, I would love to debate ths issue.

To begin with, do you accept that, most digital electronics emit RFI? if so, are you aware of the radiation pattern and potency of these stray fields? Would you also concur that most analogue equpment, particularly off board PS, are affected by RFI and EMI?

Would it also be true that these radio waves are transmitted between components by the cabling employed? Do you accept that EMI has an adverse affect on perceived sound quality, and that RFI is typically emitted at differing frequencies from different components in the chain, such as SMPS and digital clocks?

You see, answering these kind of questions can lead to an intelligent debate. Posting dismissals quoting magic and foo foo dust is simply misleading and annoying.

So let's debate

Hiya Merlin

My comments werent particularly directed at you - I just didnt like what I was seeing from a few parties.

On your points on RFI and EMI, I could give my opinion on each.

Im not a scientist though. I have no more than GCSE in science subjects behind me.

My knowledge of audio equipment comes to me purely from my ears really, although Ive read a lot of magazines over the years.

It would be remiss of me to pretend to have scientific knowledge that I dont have - so all I can do is speak of my own experiences.

Ive tried power cables on seven occasions in seven different systems now.

The systems varied from £2,000 to £30,000.
The mains leads varied from £40 to £1000.

I could sometimes hear a little bit of a difference. I could not hand on heart say that the difference was an improvement. It certainly wasnt a change that I would have been prepared to spend significant sum to achieve.

Other peoples mileage varies of course, but my take is that I dont believe mains leads to be a universal means of sound improvement - more of a subtle way of tweaking the sound.

I believe its something worth exploring when all other items in the system are at a high level already. On cheaper boxes - Id reccomend anyone put the budget for say 3 x £60 mains leads (£180) towards improving their system in other ways.... for example - selling a budget amp for £150, add £180 we now have £320 to buy a second hand amp - massive improvements can be made....

but its not just budget systems where the maths doesnt stack up..


In my own system, I have £10 interconnects, and mains cable that is barely 1 up from stock mains leads. Its just heavy duty industrial cable thats £3 per metre.

Chaning interconnects to say £60 leads and power cords to £60 each would cost £640. For £640 I could upgrade my gyrodec to full Orbe status, AND have my pre-amp modified by Border Patrol. Id scratch my head in disbelief to anyone who might think that the money might be better spent on cable than the above.

As I said earlier, YMMV of course.

Chris

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by tones
but any statement to the effect that "better power cord = automatic improvement in all circumstances" is clearly wrong.

I don't think anyone has claimed such a blanket effect tones. However, my experience with power cables are as follows:

- Bought 2 Eupens on spec because I'd heard so much about them. Was blown away by the results of fitting them to my DAC and transport (modded Marantz CD50SE and DAC64). Much less effect on the amp.

- Took a Eupen over to a friends house here in Portugal and tried it on his Meridian 588, again, we were both blown away by the results.

- Took a Eupen over to another friend (lowrider!) who already uses Van den Hul Mainsstream power cords (much more expensive). We both liked the effect the Eupen had on his Tag AV32R and we argued over whether the VDH or the Eupen was better. I preferred the Eupen, he the VDH Compared to the stock lead though there was no contest.

- I lent 2 Eupens to yet another friend who lives further away from me in Portugal and he tried them on his Meridian 507 and NuVista M3 amp. In both cases he was very pleased with the results and promptly order 2 for himself.

- Finally, I've heard the incredible difference they make on Tony's system (comparing to stock leads).

Frankly, I don't really know or care how they work. The fact is, that in the reasonable number of systems I've tried them in they do work. That still doesn't mean they'd work in every system, of course not, but they are long past being dismissed as "audiophool magic" like interconnect cables onces were.

Michael.

 

[bottleneck]

Hiya Michael

I feel there is no right or wrong with this one - its a question of whether we value the subtle difference mains cables make - and if we consider it good VFM or not.

Im not sure if you had the same demonstration at Tonys as me - we went from the Belcanto through big heffin power cords and the trichord mains block to the BC through a normal 4 way adaptor and stock power leads to a normal wall socket.

I was struggling to hear a difference between the two. It was certainly something I would call very subtle.

However - Tonys spent megabucks on his boxes - they are at a very high level - the point I made about VFM as an upgrade doesnt apply to him as he has the basic boxes at a very high level. A few hundred quid spent elsewhere wouldnt do very much.. its about extracting the Nth degree for him Im thinking.

He's lived with it, and Im sure the benefits may be bigger than those I heard at that brief demo though too.

So! where does that leave us? exactly where we were before..!!
Different people have different buying processes... just out of interests sake, heres mine..

1) Can I hear a difference?
2) Do I like the difference?
3) Can a greater improvement be made by spending money elsewhere?
4) Can I go DIY and get a similar result?

On power leads I get...
SOMETIMES, NOT REALLY, YES and YES !

different systems, different peoples opinions, different results!... others might get...
YES, YES, NO, and NO (??)

 

[michaelab]

Hi Chris - yes, I did have the same demonstration at Tony's that you mentioned. However, to me it was like two different systems

I guess different people hear different things

You're buying "checklist" is a good one allthough I would replace the DIY bit with "second hand" as I don't have the time at the moment to do DIY properly.

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[The Devil]

Originally posted by michaelab


Was blown away by the results of fitting them to my DAC and transport ..... again, we were both blown away by the results....We both liked the effect the Eupen had on his Tag AV32R ... Compared to the stock lead though there was no contest....In both cases he was very pleased with the results and promptly order 2 for himself......the incredible difference they make on Tony's system (comparing to stock leads).

Hi Michael,

You haven't said what differences you think these power cords actually make. What was it about them that was 'blowing you away'?

I agree with bottleneck, the differences with mains leads are subtle at best (to me), and I suspect that they are largely psychological in origin.

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by The Devil
You haven't said what differences you think these power cords actually make. What was it about them that was 'blowing you away'?

Well with Eupens, in the systems I've heard them in, the most startling difference is the increase in bass extension. In fact, I tried one of the fatter and more expensive Eupens on my DAC and the increased bass extension was so great it was hillarious, to the point I found it somewhat OTT and opted for the cheaper, thinnger 05/2.5 cable. My friends have noted similar experiences allthough at least one (Meridian 507 and NuVista M3) prefers the fatter Eupen.

Beyond that there's a noticeable increase in naturalness and ambience.

In WMs system, when he did the swap that Chris mentioned earlier, to me (and presumably to Tony aswell) the sound with the stock cable just collapsed in comparison. It was flat, dull and lifeless. It really was as big a difference as a box swap.

I agree with bottleneck, the differences with mains leads are subtle at best (to me), and I suspect that they are largely psychological in origin.

Well, Chris didn't hear the same differences I did - fair enough. I can tell you for sure though that the differences I've heard are not psychological in the least. What you've just said about mains leads I could say about racks and isolation: subtle at best and probably psychological :JOEL:

Michael.

 

[The Devil]

"What you've just said about mains leads I could say about racks and isolation"

Yes, you could certainly say that, but without trying you-know-what, it's a meaningless opinion.

At least I tried the Eupen power cord, alas with unfavourable results in my case.

Trying y-k-w may be a bit of a hassle, but surely not as much of a hassle as setting up and moderating this board.

 

[julian2002]

has anyone actually done any empirical tests with different power cords to see if there actually is a difference? i.e. frequency response, spl, whatever, i'm more of a subjewctive guy myself but the psycological / physical diffence thing got me thinking.
cheers


julian

 

[tones]

Originally posted by julian2002
has anyone actually done any empirical tests with different power cords to see if there actually is a difference? i.e. frequency response, spl, whatever, i'm more of a subjewctive guy myself but the psycological / physical diffence thing got me thinking.
cheers


julian

There was a test done by some of the contributors to the HFC forum, when they went to Russ Andrews. Not even the RA Market Manager could tell the difference between RA's most staggeringly expensive power cable (at about a million pounds) and the "ordinary" RA cable - more power to him to being honest wenough to admit it. It was 'way back in the distant past, but some other ex-HFC folk may remember it and have a link to it. Big Tone, you were one of the investigators, were you not?

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by The Devil
Trying y-k-w may be a bit of a hassle, but surely not as much of a hassle as setting up and moderating this board.

Not really. Setting up and moderating the board I can do all from the comfort of my desk at home. To try Mana on a sale or return basis I'd first have to find a place in London that stocked it, go there on one of the one Saturdays per month I spend in London, or one evening, pick it up and take it home (in London). Since it no doubt doesn't fit into my small trolley bag I take with me as hand luggage on the plane I'd have to either send it (at my own cost) or cart the box to the airport and then check it in.

Similar hassles await at the other end. If I then don't like it I'd have to do the whole thing in reverse just to return it.

Not to mention that I'm very happy with the appearance of my IsoBlue rip off rack and any Mana contraption probably wouldn't look so hot on the top of it - nor would it necessarily work so well as presumably it needs a base other than wood to stand on.

You see, it could well be that suspending my CD transport from steel wires attached to the ceiling would make an incredible improvement but I'm not really about to find out

Or, to put it another way: there's nothing other than your strong opinion to make me believe that Mana would do anything to my system. I already have pre-conceived (and possibly incorrect) ideas about what effect (if any) it would have and I'm not really willing to go out on a limb to prove the issue one way or another.

Michael.

 

[The Devil]

Hi Michael, it isn't just my opinion.

Haven't you read all the reviews?

[Click on 'reviews' at the top]

 

[lowrider]

The VDH Mainsstream, (wich is not that much more expensive than Eupen, 220€ for 1.5 meter with fairly expensive plugs), connected to Arcam and TAG DVD players, or to TAG and Krell AV processors, increases bass extension, nor subtle, treble extension and dynamic range, the last differences are subtle... :MILD:

The Eupen only noticeably extended bass on my system...

They did nothing noticeable connected to my Bryston powers...

Both where more then worth the money spent, replacing the standard, or some DIY I also have, on the players, and processors/DACs...

 

[michaelab]

James - I really don't want to get into a Mana debate here (this is afterall a thread about power cords)!

I have read the reviews but there's still nothing that would convince me to give it a try. We all know how accurate reviews can be, and those are all now 8-10 years old. If it really was as incredible as you and those reviews make out then I would expect to see it still mentioned from time to time - at least listed in the summary lists at the back of the mags.

If I went the Mana way I'd have to change all my racking and my wife would hate it (I don't think it's exactly the most attractive thing in the world either). I'm just not prepared to do that, even if I really liked it.

If that's my loss, then so be it. I'm not prepared to discuss it any further :MILD:

Michael.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by The Devil
I agree with bottleneck, the differences with mains leads are subtle at best (to me), and I suspect that they are largely psychological in origin.

James,

About a year ago, I had a dem at Acoustic Arts in Watford of some Audio Research kit and SF speakers.

During the listening, we experimented with taking a Seismic Sink in and out of the system. The differences were large, surprisingly this was one instance where the Sink actually worked against the system , the Theta CD player preferring to be placed on glass

In between discs, as Frazer the sales guy swapped the music over, he also changed over the mains cable from one transparent to another from the same manufacturer. This was totally unknown to me, but on resumptoin of listening, the difference was huge. I noticed it within two bars of music and was stunned when I found out that all that had changed was six feet of mains cable.

The fact that I was totally unaware of the nature of the change suggests that the affects of the cable was more than purely psychological. Now I accept that some people cannot hear the differences, some people cannot hear the difference between a Bose system and Bel Canto. this does not mean to say that the improvements are not there for most people.

There is solid empirical evidence to support the notion that lowering the noise floor by reducing RFI leads to increased dynamic contrasts and greater low level detail retrieval. This of course assumes that the cables used do actually do what they claim. There are many charlatons in the cable industry, full of marketting BS and wild unsubstantiated claims. The trick is to know who is actually making cables that stand up to scrutiny, both from a technical and a subjective standpoint.

 

[Matt F]

Originally posted by lowrider
They did nothing noticeable connected to my Bryston powers...

So, presumably, this means that certain units e.g. Bryston do come with decent power leads?

And shouldn't this be the case? If you spend £3K plus on a power amp then you should not have to spend another one or two hundred quid on a power cable!

Also, I'm still curious as to the other question I asked - namely, if you are using an inexpensive 6 gang or 8 gang extension (and I assume a fair few people do) then is there going to be much to be gained by covering the few feet from the 8 gang to the unit with an expensive power lead? Or do you also need a pricey RA multi socket extension block too?

Matt.

 

[michaelab]

Matt - to answer your question, yes - there is much to be gained. Don't need a fancy extension block. After all, the extension block is only an extension to the "40 miles of shite cabling" that comes from the substation I personally do have a pair of Olson Soundfantastic blocks. I think they're basically just their standard computer block (with surge supression etc) in a black case. I didn't to A/B testing when I got them and if they did make a difference it was small. I needed some new blocks and they looked quality, had been recommended to me and weren't very expensive.

Michael.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by Matt F
So, presumably, this means that certain units e.g. Bryston do come with decent power leads?

And shouldn't this be the case? If you spend £3K plus on a power amp then you should not have to spend another one or two hundred quid on a power cable!

Matt.

Matt, this is not neccessarily the case. What it suggests to me is that the Bryston amps are well shielded and produce very little RFI. It would be interesting to see however how it responds to a cleaner current supply. Tis only fair to say that different kit responds to different cables, it's the synergy that's important at the end of the day.

 

[lowrider]

What it suggests to me is that the Bryston amps are well shielded and produce very little RFI.

I am with Merlin on this subject, I tried standard PCs from other equipment, DIY and VDH, no difference...

I use 2 AudioDesign 6 way gangs, the second connected to the first, then to an HMS wall socket (the standard was too woobly with thick cable), they cost about 100 quid each, I think what is important is thick wire and solid sockets, the real benefits are from the last 1 meter, when there are any...

And no protection of any kind, (from what I read it isn't good for the sound quality), unless you are in a dangerous mains area...

 

[julian2002]

if it's truly the back rfi that's causing the differences would it not be a good idea to use these power cords on other appliances too such as pc's, monitors, clock radios, fridges etc? just a thought. or am i getting the wrong end of the stick here?

cheers


julian